Valuing Difference Through Type with Sue Blair

April 19, 2022

Personality type as a guide to understanding yourself and valuing different ways of operating and living.

Welcome to Episode 15 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Valuing Difference Through Type

I’m joined by Sue Blair – Personality Type Coach & Educator, Author, Speaker and Resource Creator.

We chat about Sue’s 20 plus year passion for personality and psychological type and how she works with educators, parents, careers advisors, young people and type practitioners to communicate type concepts clearly and simply as a guide for living and decision-making. Sue has ESTJ preferences – so is extraverted and sensing in preference. With a focus on introversion and intuiting in our chats and guest profiles so far in the podcast, you’ll notice the difference in style chatting with Sue! We explore extraversion and introversion, sensing and intuiting and valuing differences in people and ourselves through type.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

Parenting children who have very different personality types
How type can help educators, parents and young people
Offering choices for different personalities in educational contexts
Lenses of type: Cognitive Processes, Temperament and Interaction Styles.
‘Simplexity’ as Sue’s signature style in type work
Common misconceptions about introverts and extraverts
Being extraverted in preference including in covid times
Differences between Sensing and Intuiting preferences.
How type helps you be comfortable in yourself and value difference
Reframing Imposter Syndrome and self-doubt

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 15 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 19th of April as I record this.

II’m excited to have Sue Blair, Personality Type Coach and Educator, Speaker, Author and Resource Creator join us for the podcast today. More on Sue and our conversation in a moment.

But first, I want to share a personal update and an exciting new program open for enrolment now. I’ve been busy shaping up The Writing Road Trip community writing program I’m leading with my writing partner Beth Cregan. We kick off on 2 May for 6 months of writing together and enrolment is open now if you want to join in. There’s an early bird 10% off now before Thursday 21 April, 9am AEST so if you’re listening before then, take advantage of that. The Writing Road Trip focuses on accountability, community and support to help you write what’s in your heart with the companionship of others. We’ve shaped up a program based on what worked to help us write our books and we know it will help you with your writing practice. Plus we’ll have a ton of fun along the way. You can find out more here:

Find out more about The Writing Road Trip

Now onto today’s fabulous conversation with Sue Blair. Sue has been working with psychological type for 20 years. She is an international presenter and keynote speaker, as well as a qualified MBTI practitioner and adult educator. She is the author of The Personality Puzzle coaching cards, now used worldwide by coaches and counsellors. She has taught thousands of teachers, parents, students and businesses about the importance of self-awareness and communication. Sue is the recipient of the APTi 2015 Gordon Lawrence Award. This award recognises an outstanding achievement to the field of education.

Sue and I met as fellow psychological type practitioners through the Australian Association for Psychological Type. New Zealand based, Sue is a valuable and sought-after contributor to international conferences and forums on psychological type. I’ve had the pleasure of attending several workshops and conference presentations led by Sue. They are always immense fun and incredibly practical. Sue’s teaching and sharing about personality work is characterised by strong roots in educational work, use of images and graphics such as through her Personality Puzzle coaching cards and stunningly clear descriptions about personality types. And with more than 20 years’ experience in the field, all her work is enriched by deep knowledge and experience.

Sue has ESTJ preferences so is Extraverted and a Sensing in preference and with many Introverts and Intuitives, like me on the show so far, I was keen to explore different preferences in conversations with guests. We focus on this and on personality preferences generally and how they play out in practice to value difference in all kinds of ways in this episode.

I hope it inspires you to explore more about how personality insights can help you with self-leadership and self-knowledge.

So let’s head into the interview with Sue.

Transcript of interview with Sue Blair

Terri Connellan: Hello Sue and welcome to the Create Your Story podcast.

Sue Blair: Hi Terri, thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Terri Connellan: Thank you for your connection. And I can’t wait to explore more about you and about psychological type today. So we’ve connected in many ways around personality and psychological type as part of AusAPT the Australian Association for Psychological Type and the global type community. And it’s great to be able to share those conversations. So can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work that you do now.

Sue Blair: Yes, absolutely. So, way back a while ago, I was born in London. I am the youngest of five. And, we’ll come onto this later, but I am the only extrovert in the whole family. I have a twin sister who is my absolute opposite in type. My preferences are ESTJ. My lovely twin sister is INFP. I started out business wise in the travel industry and really enjoyed it. That’s something that came very easily to me. I worked in business travel. It seemed to suit all of my requirements, meet my needs, got into management and into sales and was a sales manager for quite a while before I then stopped to have children.

So I met and married my lovely husband, John, who has ENTP preferences. We actually met commuting on the underground. Clearly being an ENTP, he wasn’t following any of the rules that you don’t speak to anybody on the underground and somehow or other, we got to be married and 33 years later, we still are. So, always an interesting experience to marry someone who’s totally your opposite, but a good learning opportunity, I think.

So we moved to New Zealand 25 years ago. I moved with an 18 month old and then had my son James here. So we have two children Louisa, who has ISTJ preferences and James who is ENTP. So not a huge amount of diversity in the family, but my goodness, parenting those two incredibly different children was what really got me into psychological type.

I found out about it through doing a parenting course when I was in New Zealand and it completely resonated with me and I kind of got well, would obsessed be the right word? I’m not entirely sure, but I just thought this is the most helpful thing that I have ever discovered about parenting. And it’s so clear to me that I had these two children who were different and if I parented them the same, then things were going to go downhill rather quickly.

So Louisa, unsurprisingly was somewhat more like me, although that difference between extroversion and introversion was very clear from the outset. And then parenting James, I just had to learn a whole new set of skills.

And so getting them through the school system was also very, very different. Louisa was born for school. She accelerated herself. She was just like a pig in mud really. She was happy other than socially, sometimes she found it difficult. And James was just a square peg in a round hole. And we just had to get him through, those 13 years until he exited and is now doing very well, thankfully.

But it was that experience, that personal experience that really introduced me to type, and I can remember going to a workshop, a Myers-Briggs workshop and listening to a really lovely woman presenting on time and just sitting there going, I want to do what she’s doing. And eventually I did get to do that, but not necessarily in the corporate world. Yes. I have gone back to the corporate world and done a lot of work with teams and that’s a place that I feel very happy. But I really did want to use type to help parents, to help young people, to help teachers, to help educators. Because it was really difficult. It was a real challenge to get an ENTP through school, my ENTP through school.

And so really I’d like to alleviate some of the headaches and just help people understand that people are going to learn differently. And that means that you can make that journey a lot easier. So I now work with teachers, with educators. I’ve done a lot of work with teenagers, helping them understand themselves, and more recently working a lot with careers advisers in schools, because I really do believe that we’ve got a lot of young people who are making choices that are not as well informed as they could be.

So the work that I’ve been doing has been in educating the careers advisors within the school or university environment to say include this. But this is not the only thing that you need to know, but please include something on personality types so that the young people who you are working with get an understanding of themselves and why either a job environment might suit them or not, or why a particular career option that they’re looking at might suit them or not. Bearing in mind that we’re not matching a career with a type. You know, we’re not saying that people of this type can only do this sort of career. The world is your oyster in many, many ways.

But it is absolutely necessary to see the essence of somebody. And just say, let’s just discuss this and maybe look at some other options. So it opens up the conversation as soon as a young person feels that they’ve got that self-awareness piece in mind.

Terri Connellan: That’s fascinating. And it’s always amazing to hear how people’s life experiences have taken them down a path and into their passions. And your work really focuses in educational contexts obviously from the expriences that you’ve been through, working with teachers, working with students, working with teenagers and career advisors. So can you tell our listeners a little bit more about this work and the value of type in these contexts, cause I’m sure there’s just so much value for people in educational contexts.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. I really love working with educators and I’ve worked with them at all sorts of different levels going from early childhood through primary, through to high school and in almost every setting, as soon as we start talking about personality type, they just look at me aghast and they just start saying, why did we not learn this at our teacher’s education college? What was missing? This is an enormous piece of the puzzle that was missing. And I think they’re absolutely right.

It really is the case that you have to know the people who you are speaking to, or at least understand difference. So what we are not saying, you know, obviously in a high school context, it gets even more difficult at the younger years, it’s a little bit easier. But we are not saying that you have to teach to everyone’s personality type a hundred percent of the time, but you have to offer choices within the classroom that is going to appeal to all students at some point in time.

And it is definitely the case that they often learn most, in some cases, from doing something that doesn’t fit their natural style. But unless they’ve got that knowledge that some of the time their needs are going to be met, then they can find the learning environment very difficult indeed. So it’s a question of offering choices.

What does that mean to both the educators and to the students, but also a lot of the time, we’re looking at team-building within schools because teachers work in clusters and more and more now we have the modern learning environment. And that means that teachers are working very closely together. So I do work closely with my local primary school, where both my children went to school and they now have a modern learning environment where they’ve got three teachers who have 90 children for the year.

And that means that it’s far harder for them to know how the child is progressing all of the time. They can manage 30 children and they get to know them throughout the year. Really getting the same level of connection with 90 children is not that possible. And also to be able to connect well, and work well with the other teachers who are working in that same situation. So how they get on, what their personalities are, how they can really leverage each other’s strengths and understand that you don’t have to be good at everything. You can have some gaps, you can have some holes, but if they work in a team where they’ve got multiple preferences, then you can really work together, everybody working to their strengths and everybody having a trust in each other that they can ask for help.

So I spent quite a lot of my time doing that as well. So it’s not just, how do you teach a child who’s different to me, but how do we get on as adults and also, how do we manage? One of the things that I find working in corporate life is that there are plenty of people who are given training on managing your staff, but nobody or very rarely are you given some training on how to manage up. How do you actually manage your boss? Because your boss is one of the most important peoples in your life. The person who is managing you, you need that connection to go well. So how does that look? And how can I make some changes? What sort of perspective shifts can I make in order to make that relationship work?

And that’s the same in schools or in corporate or in families. Everywhere you go, your personality is your permanent companion and you carry it with you wherever you go. So. Yeah, being able to cut and paste to different situations is really important.

Terri Connellan: Yes. And I’ve had the great opportunity of attending workshops with you and had so much value from those workshops, particularly where you’ve emphasized the three lenses of type, the idea of cognitive processes, temperament and interaction styles and also the fantastic visual resources that you use.

All of the things that you mentioned, it’s about understanding ourselves, but it’s how we work with others, how we work with our children and how we work with children as teachers, how we manage up and absolutely that understanding your boss, understanding how your team works. All of those are just such critical life skills. I agree. And why did we not learn this? is absolutely a question I’ve asked myself too. So, and you also said early on, it’s like a piece of the puzzle missing. Is that why you called your cards Personality Puzzle?

Sue Blair: I guess it was in a way, other than there’s a beautiful alliteration having Personality Puzzles. But you know what? I was sort of thinking about names and I was like, puzzling it through and I was thinking, okay, this seems like a good way to go because it is. Every family unit is different. Every working unit is different. And I’ve been doing this work, for 20 years plus, and I’m not bored with it yet because there’s always a different puzzle. There’s always something else that you haven’t sort of considered so yeah, probably.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I had a chat with Joe Arrigo, who I know you also know, recently. He talked about in coaching, he sees personality as a puzzle, he said not to be solved, but a puzzle to sort of put the pieces together.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. And you mentioned there those three lenses, which I think are invaluable. So having the cognitive processes, temperament and interaction styles, I consider them as being a bit like spinning plates. You know, when I’m doing some coaching with someone. I’m like, have I have, I twizzled that plate? Have I gone through all three? And you’re just gathering the information and then coaching in relation to what you’re hearing, but definitely using those three elements of type, those three perspectives, I find incredibly helpful.

Terri Connellan: They’re so valuable. So how would you describe your signature style in your personality type work?

Sue Blair: I often use a word that I kind of made up, which is ‘simplexity’. And I rather like it because it really, I think puts across the fact that we have to make things simple.

You know, if we’re going to get to speak to people who are not type practitioners, then we have to make it as simple as possible. But I certainly want to honor the complexity of the model. You know, we are all very complex people. We are all this dynamic and incredible mixture of physics, chemistry, and biology. We are complex human beings. The human brain is the most complex thing on the planet, so many people say.

But trying to make it simple, I think as an ESTJ, my type preferences are pretty unusual in the type community. When I go to type conferences, probably 10 or 20% of people have a sensing preference and I love hanging out with you intuiting guys. I think you’re fabulous. I love the way that you think about things and you explore and you’re so curious about everything. But my goodness, you can make things complicated from time to time.

So I think my role within the type community is one that can just get through some of that, make things more simple, use a process to help people understand that involves grounded descriptions, communication style that is perhaps more direct. And getting to the point quickly. Because we haven’t got time. We are all time poor. So the more we can make the most of the time then, hopefully I provide resources that allow people to do that.

Terri Connellan: Oh, you absolutely do. And I mentioned your Personality Puzzle and Type Trilogy cards as we’ve talked and they’re fantastic resources because they’re very visual and they do make the complex clearer. And, when I’m coaching, if I’m working with a client, I grab those cards. I have them around me as resources to prompt me, which I find really helpful. And yeah, they’re great. And your LinkedIn posts that you’ve done recently are just fabulous. You look like you’re really enjoying that social media work.

Sue Blair: Well, the first time in my life, I can actually say that I am enjoying social media and I have to thank Joe Arrigo for that who got me onto it. Because I was just wondering, what do you do with this? How do you communicate with the world about something that you find that so important without kind of being too salesy. And he really got me into this frame of mind that you just share what you know, and I’ve just been really happy doing that. I’m not trying to sell anybody, anything. I might mention a few things that I’m involved with, but you know, after 20 years of trying to put across this message on type, I’ve got a few tricks up my sleeve.

And I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed on a weekly basis, putting some information out there that has been something that I’ve learnt along the way. And I’ve been to what I have been to dozens of type conferences by now, which are all fantastic. I enjoy it. If I come away with three or four things that I’ve learnt, that I can describe a bit differently then it’s just a wonderful experience.

And just being with a whole group of type enthusiasts is fantastic. So I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed sharing that and getting the comments back. It’s been a joy and a pleasure, I have to say.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s been really well-received. And Sue you have preferences for extroversion. Can you explain what this means in practice and how it plays out in your life?

Sue Blair: Absolutely. I think it certainly was striking. As I mentioned to you before I come from a largish family, there’s five children and my two parents and I am the only extrovert in the family. I’m in my fifties now. But it was just a few years ago that my mum said to me, you know, that must have been quite difficult for you. Yeah, it really was. I went out a lot. I had a fairly quiet sort of cerebral household that I came back to. And I’d walk through the door and go, Ooh, I’m home. And there was this sort of collective rolling of eyes. Yeah, you came through the door and the rest of us knew about it. So that’s been interesting and also, raising a highly introverted child, my daughter, Louisa has been a really interesting experience too. And as I mentioned again, before my twin sister has preferences for introversion.

So, how it plays out in my life is, it didn’t take me long to realise that I needed that need met hugely. I think it allows me to understand that that is not something that I can let go of, that I do need to communicate with other people. I do need connection with other people and I’ve needed it all my life. You know, this is something that has never changed.

Even though I’m working from home a lot, sometimes I’m working by myself, I do organize my day so that I can get that need met in any way that I can. Often it is just going for walks. It’s just connecting up with people. If I look over my week, I’ve got meetings, I’ve got people I’m seeing, I’ve got things I’m doing. And you know, there’s wonderful occasions where I’m doing workshops, which is fantastic. I get my tank filled on a regular basis. But I understand it. I think I’ve also got a bit of a handle on when I’m too much. I do sort of have this understanding that, there are times when I need to sort of stop now and just quieten down a bit.

When I go to see my sister, it’s quite funny, an INFP and her partner is an INTP and they have a lovely quiet life together in a very small village in England. And I stayed with them for a week. And I think I knew more people in the village at the end of the week than they’d known living there for three years. But they’re also very appreciative of my need and they love me arriving, but I’m pretty sure when I go, it’s, ‘okay well, we got through that little sort of hurricane that just came through our house.’

Terri Connellan: So it must have been difficult as a person with extroverted preferences over the past two years with COVID impacts. So how was that for you and how did type insights help you navigate these times?

Sue Blair: Oh I think I have never been more thankful for understanding type. So my situation was possibly somewhat extreme in many ways. So I visited my elderly parents who both live on the small island of Alderney in the Channel Islands, which is an English island, but just off the coast of France. And I was visiting my parents who are in their nineties. This was in March of 2020, and basically I got stuck there. So they needed some assistance at the time. And we got to the point where covid was shutting everything down. And in New Zealand, either you got back by the 31st of March, or you had no idea how long you’d be away for. The whole place was sort of shutting.

And it wasn’t possible for me to leave. My parents needed me at that point in time. And so I said, I can’t go, I’ll have to stay here. Anyway, I was on the island for five months. So this was tricky in many ways. I didn’t have my usual routine. I didn’t have structured.

In fact, out of any of the needs that you could possibly think of that an ESTJ might need, absolutely all of them were taken away. So I couldn’t work at pace. I couldn’t be productive doing my own work. I was looking after my parents and I have to say, I do adore my parents, the pace was glacial. It was so slow.

Terri Connellan: And it’s not a big island, is it?

Sue Blair: It’s a very, very small island and I walked every single inch of it. I paced around the island every afternoon, while they were resting. And yeah, it was a difficult time. Not only that, but I had no idea what my future was, as far as, when I’d be able to leave or would I be there for months? Would I be there for years? This was the time we had no vaccines. We had no idea how, how long this was going to be going on for. So nothing was available that gave me any sort of security.

It was an extremely difficult time, but again, understanding type, I got my needs met. I got involved with the type community who were fabulous as support people. I went walking on the island everyday and found a lovely lady who I’m still friendly with today. We used to go walking literally for hours at two o’clock every afternoon. So I could do everything that I needed to do at my parents’ place. And then I had this lovely person to go walking with for two hours every day. And we did, we just walked for miles and miles and miles. And so we were definitely therapy for each other.

So that was great, but I knew what was difficult. I knew what I needed to do to try and cope with it. Most certainly my experience wasn’t the worst experience in the covid scenario. We were all well and covid didn’t hit the island very badly at all. And so, we were fine. We were safe. So that was one of the things. One of my core needs was met, but challenging in many ways. Yeah. And even recently in 2021, just last year, my city Auckland was locked down for a hundred days. And again, sometimes you feel you’ve pivoted so much you’re pirouetting around the place.

But by then I was back at home. So that was a little bit easier. So I got to have more of my normal things around me. Yeah. But definitely I think covid pulled the strings on extroversion far more than perhaps the introverts. Again, my twin sister was gleeful.

Terri Connellan: Yes. We’re both introverts in our house and we’ve been quite happily ensconced.

Sue Blair: She was completely content. It was almost like her whole life had been validated. Stay in. Thank you! Work by yourself. Again, tick! So everything she needed was provided and everything I needed sort of wasn’t.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it must’ve been super challenging. So what would you say as some of the common misconceptions about extroversion and introversion?

Sue Blair: I think the key one is this idea that extroverts are always sociable and introverts are always shy. Obviously, we each need to have a little bit of our other preference. There are times when I certainly enjoy my sociability. I really enjoy connecting with other people. It’s something that I sort of like about myself, but I need time by myself. Yeah. I really do, but not as much. I think there is a time and energy component to both of those preferences.

Those with a preference for introversion again, then they’re not always shy. I know introverts who say to me that they don’t have a shy bone in their body. And I believe them. I really do, but they need an exit strategy for when things become a little bit overwhelming. And they can get overwhelmed by a social event, way more quickly than I can.

So I think for extroverts, we don’t need to conserve our energy in the same way that introverts do. We get our energy from being out and about. It is exhausting for somebody with a preference for extroversion to spend all day by themselves. In the same way that it is exhausting for somebody with a preference for introversion to be out connecting all day. You know, you need a break after that. We need a break after having time by ourselves. So that time and energy component I think is really, really important. And I think it is the most misunderstood thing about extroverts and introverts. You know, we are not all one and none of the other. We are a lovely company.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And you explained that beautifully in your recent LinkedIn post, which I’ll link to in the show notes about solar versus battery energy. That was a a beautiful analogy.

Sue Blair: Yeah. Extroverts are solar powered. We literally do just get our energy back from being out there in the world and that battery power, that resource, that inner resource that you go into, that introspection that you get your energy back from is very different. And understanding that, appreciating that with the people we live with, people we’re raising, people we work with, in all contexts.

Terri Connellan: Just as in the renewable energy, well, we need both of those aspects of energy. We need both those in our community, a great analogy. You have preferences for sensing also as opposed to intuiting. And this is probably one of the aspects of type that are perhaps harder to understand, I think, than some of the others. So can you explain these preferences, sensing and intuiting, for gathering information in different ways?

Sue Blair: Sure. I think if you have a sensing preference that your mind is far more converging than it is diverging. You think of an idea and you zero in on it. If you think about going into zoom and you’re looking on zoom and then you zoom in further and you zoom in further and you zoom in further and you go, aha. That’s where I need to go. The sensing brain does that naturally, whereas the intuiting brain is very much more divergent. It just has this natural outward curiosity to it.

So the sensing brain looks at the real, looks at the tangible, looks at what is, and, and really has a joy of that. And the intuitive brain looks at the possible, looks at the patterns looks at what could be. And I’m often talking to people about creativity because some people seem to think that those within intuiting preference have sort of got a monopoly on creativity and that isn’t the case at all.

Those were the sensing preference can really have a huge amount of creativity within them, but they use reality as a spring board to go to these different places. But let’s gather the information first and then we can just launch ourselves off, into all sorts of different spaces, but ground me first. And those with an intuitive preference, the imagination is the tool that they use by which they can craft their reality and know what to do next.

So it’s sort of going outwards, for those who have a sensing preference from base upwards and outwards. And it’s the opposite way for those, with an intuitive preference. You just see that sort of big picture and then you just wriggle around in your mind to get to, okay, so what does that mean right now? Diverge, converge.

Terri Connellan: Yes, I can certainly relate to that with my partner Keith who is ISTJ. So he has sensing preferences and I have intuiting and the times I notice that is when he’ll ask me a question and then I will tell him all these different things that relate to it. And he’ll say, no, I just asked this question. I just went through, but it’s yeah, it’s that meandering that to me is obvious, like, it’s that relates to that. Whereas he goes, no, I just want this fact.

Sue Blair: Yeah. And also I think the surprising thing for those of us who have a sensing preference is how many different interpretations you can make from one single sentence. You know, it’s just, I didn’t mean that, what I meant was. And that it can be misinterpreted so that you can get 10 different things out of one simple sentence.

Terri Connellan: So there’s probably a lot of argument for intuitives working with sensing coaches, isn’t there and the opposite way around?

Sue Blair: I think so. Yes. I think often about the sort of coach I would go to. There would be no point in me going to a coach who had my preferences. I’d probably enjoy it, we’d probably have a marvelous time. Why go to another ESTJ or ISTJ? I can ESTJ somebody out of the park. I need to have another perspective.

And perhaps that’s why a lot of people who have my opposite preferences, cause I think there’s some statistics around that the people with intuiting and feeling preferences and sensing and feeling preferences are the most likely people to require or to go towards having coaching. Maybe an ESTJ perspective can be really helpful as indeed I find intuiting preference is really helpful in coaching. Let’s go and talk to somebody that had just has a different view. Because I don’t want to hear the same thing again. I want to see what I’m missing. And though I can do it by myself, under stress, we do tend to exaggerate our natural preference and so we can kind of block out and have blind spots to some of those areas that aren’t as easily available to us. So yes, I would agree with you on that.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. Interesting point. You mentioned creativity. And one thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of creatives and writers that I work with, they’re often intuitive in preference, and when I talk about sensing and intuiting, they often find it hard to understand that they’re not sensing in preference because I guess perhaps as writers, they see themselves working with the five senses and noticing what’s around them. What would you say to that? It was just an interesting conundrum.

Sue Blair: Yes, I think it is. And I think when you’re looking at type, you have to really differentiate between what is being human and what is type? Where is the line there? And there are a lot of people who I speak to say, well, I, you know, I use sensing and I love going for walks in nature. And I love enjoying all of the beauty of the things around me. I say, yeah, but that’s being human. That’s not type. You know, when you have some information that you need, when you have got a problem to solve, where do you go to? And that’s where your type difference comes in. So I think there’s definitely that distinction to draw. What is human and what is psychological.

And I think if those with an intuiting preference didn’t use sensing, well they’d be bumping into things all the time? You’ve got all of your senses and you’re going to use them. Those with an intuiting preference absolutely do that. Those with a sensing preference still do have an imagination. We are very skilled with our imagination. We just use it at different times and in different ways.

Terri Connellan: So yeah, it’s about what your preference is, what you go to perhaps first or naturally.

Sue Blair: Yes, absolutely. Although, I was talking to a friend of mine who has INTP preferences and she says, I am so in my head that I do bump into things from time to time. She was just saying, I don’t just bump into something that is a surprisingly, there. She said I bump into my kitchen table, which hasn’t moved for years. I’ve just got myself inside my head thinking something through. And I literally don’t notice. I’m not aware of what’s going on, that does happen also.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I often say that to clients who are similar types to me, like that introverted, intuitive, dominant, I have to actually make myself leave this room because you know, I’ve got to have all my resources, my imagination, my whole world’s in this room and I actually have to lever myself to go out and go for a walk on the beach. And when I do, it’s the best thing in the world because I get that balance that I need.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. And I really think that knowing type, you can be intentional about using these other preferences. And I think that’s really important because you do need to recognize your blind spots and just go, what am I missing here? That’s an important conversation to have for everybody to know what your strengths are.

And sometimes your superpower is to understand your flaws and not be frightened of them. I can’t do that. Yeah. But that doesn’t worry me. I’m okay. I will either get some support in this area or I would kind of intentionally force my brain to just ask a few questions that I wouldn’t normally ask. Think outside the box. What am I missing here? Is there an elephant in the room? Is there something I haven’t noticed? And sort of direct your attention in a different way, which is a lot easier to do when you’re not stressed.

Terri Connellan: That’s for sure. Yeah. And I’d love your writing and insights on the inferior function, which is in part what we’re talking about here, that real opposite of our dominant preference. So can you explain a little bit about the inferior function and why people might choose to work with it as a form of self-awareness and growth?

Sue Blair: Yeah, actually it’s a good segue having had that conversation just now, really, because I think in my view, the inferior function would be better if we reframed it and retitled it. I think it isn’t actually inferior. I call it the balancing function. We all need to have a balance. Some of the images that I put across when I’m doing workshops is that I have the image of a horse that’s got out of control. You know, when your dominant function runs away with you, you literally can’t put brakes on it.

But neither are we going to trot perfectly round a dressage arena and get out sort of extended trots working smoothly. Life isn’t like that, you know, we’re not going to do things perfectly. So we are going to have to rumble with things and we will just maintain as much control as we possibly can. So I think that’s what the inferior function allows us to do. It just reigns us in from making some stupid mistakes from just letting the whole thing, get out of control. And try and engage with it rather than ignore it completely, which is going to send us off in the wrong direction.

So the presentation that I’ll be doing for BAPT is called Type in Tandem. And that’s really thinking about what is it like to ride a tandem bicycle? You know, you’ve got somebody on the front and you’ve got somebody at the back. If you think about that as your dominant/ inferior function. If the only person that’s working is the person who’s at the front, who’s got the steering wheel and is driving everything, but is not getting any power from the back, then it’s just hard work.

You need to have that person on the back. You need to have like this psychotherapist, that’s tapping you on the shoulder. That’s going, excuse me. Have you thought about this? Let me help you with. And that combination of types can be really great. So with my preferences, for example, and as ESTJ, my dominant function, extroverted thinking, it needs introverted feeling to say, is this important? Does this really matter? Is the energy that you’re putting into this activity worthy? Is it something that is going to produce good results? Not as it necessarily going to give you happiness? But it’s what you are doing going to make you happier than you were? Are you working towards something that’s meaningful and important to you.

And I do really find that in certainly in my later years, I’ve been able to tap into that. Similarly, as I’ve mentioned, my lovely sister has INFP preferences. She works the other way around. She actually is an artist, she does beautiful work. She does work that is meaningful to her and her values are strong. But if you just sit with strong values and do nothing with them, then that’s not a life well led either. So she needs to take those inner values and those inner core resources that she absolutely has in spades and just say, okay, so now what am I going to do with this? What am I going to put out to the world?

Because that doesn’t need to stay within me. I need to put something out into the world so that I have this legacy that I believe in and is strong within me. And you can use extraverted thinking to do that. You know, how am I going to organize my life so that the introverted feeling that is key for me has an external expression that is helpful to others

So the inferior function can just be incredible. It can be incredibly powerful and it can also be very, very difficult if you have no access to it whatsoever. We need to have those functions, whatever is your dominant and inferior function, they do need to be working in cahoots. They need to understand each other and tap in and say, hello? What advice can you give me on this one?

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love that article that you wrote for BAPT (Invoking the Inferior Function) a little while ago, and again, I’ll link to it in the show notes, on the inferior function. And for each function, you’ve got a lovely question just as you’ve shown us in those examples of, if you’re really strong on this function, how to bring in the opposites through just asking a question. Certainly for my type, that question was like, oh, you know, just takes you back, because it’s completely where you need to be focusing, but it’s not in your consciousness.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. And I think we can all, have even a list of questions available to us before we’re decision-making certainly. I mean, your dominant function is the one that I really fail to get. You know, that future thinking. Looking back in my past, I would take my life one term at a time when I had children one year at a time was the maximum I’d look out. To actually go to the top of the mountain and look any further was, is really difficult for me. And for anybody who’s saying, well, what’s your five or 10 year plan. It’s like, I have absolutely no idea, but it’s probably a good idea to look five and 10 years ahead.

What you’re doing now could be really relevant to what you might need to be doing in five or 10 years time, but it just simply doesn’t occur to me to go and do that. So I need to be dragged, kicking and screaming into your head, Terri, tell me a few things.

Terri Connellan: Must be great having a twin who’s your exact opposite in terms the types.

Sue Blair: Yes, it’s got better and better as we’ve got older. As you can imagine through our younger and teenage years, there was some tricky patches, but I think we’ve forgiven each other. I think she had to forgive me for a whole lot more than I had to forgive her to be honest, but we’ve absolutely worked it out. But I would highly recommend anybody who understands type and who knows their type preferences to find somebody who is their complete opposite and just build a connection so that you can just link in with each other and say, I’m thinking like this. Can you help me out with that?

Terri Connellan: That’s a great idea.

Sue Blair: Link up with someone who’s your opposite, so you’ll have to find an ESFP, Terri.

Terri Connellan: So the last couple of questions are questions that I ask each guest on the podcast because it’s the Create Your Story Podcast, interested in how you have created your story over your lifetime. It’s a big question, but interested to see what pops up.

Sue Blair: If I look back over my life, I can really see my type preferences being in action from the early years, as you can imagine. I think what understanding type has really given me as an adult is it has absolutely allowed me to make sure that I’m doing work that uses my strengths. And that there are some things that I can’t do. So if you’re waiting at a bus stop and several buses come along, there’s been several buses in my life that with my type knowledge, I’ve gone, that one’s not for me. I can do this, but this one I can’t. And then my bus comes along and I go now that one I can do. Yeah. That one’s for me. And to not be anxious or worried about it.

So I’ve found that increasingly helpful as I’ve gone through the years, being able to adjust and use the skills that I have in a way that I know is going to enable me to give my best to the world. We were saying earlier about my role in type is to take the complication out of things, make things simple and communicate it as clearly and concisely as I possibly can so that people get it first time. They’re not just struggling and having things ramble around in their minds, giving them something that’s concrete. And so I feel like I’m able to do that. Even with the Personality Puzzles. I had a prototype of the Personality Puzzles, when I first went on my certification program. So before I’d even been certified to use type, I realized that I needed a tool, a resource to help me talk to people about it so that they could understand it clearly. And I could get that, that information back.

So I think it that has definitely assisted me. And I think it will assist me still going forward. So creating my story, I think it also enables you to be happy with the story that you’ve got. I’m happy with the fact that there are some things that I can’t do. I really admire people who have different talents to me. I think it’s allowed me to not be so swift to step back and watch and enjoy people, having other talents, without feeling envious of them or wishing that I had them those sorts of feelings and, and just being a lot more comfortable in myself. It’s just helped enormously.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. What I’m hearing from you with that, that type has been such a huge part of your story as it’s evolved. And it sounds like it’s been a real tool for wisdom.

Sue Blair: I hope so. It definitely has given me other perspectives. One of the things that I really like when I’m writing, I’ve done as, you know, several resources and I write type descriptions, and they’re not easy to write, especially when you’ve only got an A five piece of card in which to put as much information as you possibly can about a particular type.

And my modus operandi for doing that was to literally sink myself into each of the 16 types while I was writing about INTJ or ESFP or whichever one, and it would be quite a task in any given morning that I knew I would be doing some writing, and I just go, which one do I want to be today?

And then just immersing myself in this ENTP brain of like, well, okay, let me be this for a day or two days and just thoroughly enjoying it, being able to glean so much from not only the other types of descriptions that you’re reading, but just to create something that is different and valuable that people are going to get in just by reading those type descriptions. It’s a very therapeutic way of doing it and an interesting dive into being someone else for a while. I guess actors do that a lot with their characters. I can’t claim to have any acting skills whatsoever, I imagine it’s a similar process that you cloak yourself in someone else for awhile, and then you can shed it. It’s fascinating. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it must’ve been amazing working through all 16 types. I’ve had a taste of it with doing workshops, with Dario Nardi with his priming, where you put yourself into exactly what it’s like. I worked particularly on INTP and just putting myself in the shoes and working with an INTP as a a partner in that exercise made me realize how different life is and how running so many processes in your mind as an INTP typically does all the time. It was incredibly cognitively busy.

Sue Blair: One of the sensing activities that I do in workshops is they literally have different colored acetates, blues greens, yellows, and I just get people to hold them up to their eyes and just say okay, looking through the red acetate looks like this. Now change to yellow or change to blue or change to green. And it’s as different as that.

People just see their world with totally different filters and unless you know about it, then you can’t be aware of it. But once you know about it, you will never not know it. And that’s the beauty of understanding type. You will never go through life, not knowing this information. And I think it is, It’s a gift really. It’s gold in people’s lives.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I think that’s why so many of us who work in type have chosen to do that. Just as you’ve explained, once you learn the value of it for yourself, but also working with others, it is really gold. And as you were talking there, it sounded like type was like a framework for choices, for discernment too, which I think is really powerful.

Sue Blair: Yeah, absolutely.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. So in Wholehearted, my book, I have 15 Wholehearted Self-leadership skills and practices for women. And to add to that body of knowledge, I’m interested in your top wholehearted self-leadership practices, especially for women.

Sue Blair: It’s an interesting one. Isn’t it? And I think one of the things over the years that I have come to really want to reframe in people’s minds is this imposter syndrome. People are talking about imposter syndrome a lot at the moment, and I’m not too sure that it’s helpful. I think that both men and women do get it, but I think women may have it more obviously, or more often. I haven’t got any research for that, but in my knowledge of, in the work that I’ve been doing. And I kind of like to reframe it because I think that it is absolutely necessary to have a reasonable and realistic doubt about some of the challenges that you might take on.

Now that doesn’t necessarily mean you have a syndrome, you are not an imposter. You just have some reasonable doubt and it certainly doesn’t mean that you’re not going to take on the challenge. So instead of saying, well, I’ve got imposter syndrome and I’m terribly worried about it and I might not do it. Why am I here? It’s like, okay, I’ve got some reasonable doubt, but I’m going to do it anyway. And I think that’s a far better way to look at it because we all have some doubts along the way.

And I remember going to a conference for careers advisors. And they said that the research there is that before women apply for a promotion or a new job, it is very likely, more likely than with men, for them to think, well, I haven’t got some of the things that this job description is requiring. So I won’t apply until I have consolidated and done an extra course or done another two years or built up my skills so that I can apply for the job. And men tend not to do that. They tend to tick 50% or 60% of the boxes. And say, I’ll just give it a go.

And I think we need to do that as women a bit more often, and to stop consolidating and thinking, yes, I need to do this, this, this, this, this, and this before I can do that, that, that, that, and just, yeah, it could be a challenge. You may have some reasonable and rational doubts, but do it anyway. I know that there is that book, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, but it’s experience the doubt that’s reasonable and rational and do it anyway.

Terri Connellan: That’s a great top tip. A coach that I trained with a little while ago, he stressed the importance of not waiting until you’re free of fear or free of doubt, but to move ahead with those, because he said, they’ll always be there with you. And if you wait until you’re free of doubt or fear, you’ll never move.

Sue Blair: And get support. I love the work of Brené Brown and she talks about vulnerability. And it’s okay to have that vulnerability it absolutely is. We need to shift this idea that we may have in our heads about leadership that means that we don’t need to be vulnerable. You know, we’re going to make mistakes and failure we learn from and grow from. We don’t want to make huge mistakes. but we don’t want the fear of it to stop us doing something. And so, saying to yourself, this is a reasonable and realistic doubt. Okay, let me just go ahead and just give it my best shot.

Terri Connellan: Mm. I love that. That’s a great thing to remember. So we’re just about at the end of our time together. So thanks so much for joining me today, Sue. It’s been great to learn more about you and to chat more about type and through all different aspects of how type can be such a powerful framework for us in guiding our lives.

So where can people find out more about you and your work online?

Sue Blair: Oh, thank you. So I’ve got a couple of websites, one of them for my resources, which is PersonalityPuzzles.com. And then for the coaching work and the presentation work that I do. It’s sueblair.co.nz. Or in fact, personalitydynamics.co.nz. Either one will get you there.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me today. It’s been wonderful.

Sue Blair: You’re very welcome, Terri. Thanks so much for having me.

About Sue Blair

Sue has been working with psychological type for 20 years. She is an international presenter and keynote speaker, as well as a qualified MBTI practitioner and adult educator. She is the author of The Personality Puzzle coaching cards, now used worldwide by coaches and counsellors. She has taught thousands of teachers, parents, students and businesses about the importance of self-awareness and communication. Sue is the recipient of the APTi 2015 Gordon Lawrence Award. This award recognises an outstanding achievement to the field of education

You can connect with Sue:

Website: SueBlair.co.nz or PersonalityPuzzles.co.nz

Personality Puzzles: https://www.personalitypuzzles.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-blair/

Terri’s links to explore:

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching & writing programs:

Work with me

The Writing Road Trip six month membership program – enrolling now for a 2 May start

The Writing Road Trip email list – community writing program with Beth Cregan

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

Personality Type Coaching and Social Media with Joe Arrigo

February 11, 2022

Helping people find their place in the world through personality type clarity.

Welcome to Episode 12 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Personality Type Coaching and Social Media.

I’m joined by Joe Arrigo, Personality Type Coach, INTJ and LinkedIn and YouTube aficionado.

We chat about Joe’s journey to psychological type and type coaching and how he shares and connects with people on social media around personality.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

Joe’s journey to being a type coach
Learning type as a language
The magic of understanding your type
Personal growth as an INTJ
The power of focusing on our weaknesses
Social media and type
Being extraverted via social media as an introvert
Tips for LinkedIn
Being visible on social media

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 12 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 11 of February as I record this. I’ve been enjoying two weeks of The Writing Road Trip Free Challenge inspiring and chatting with writers over the past two weeks with my writing partner, Beth Cregan and launching The Writing Road Map short course which starts on 28 February. More on that in a moment.

I’m excited to have Joe Arrigo join us for the podcast today to chat about Personality Type Coaching and Social Media and it’s a fabulously fun and deep conversation all at the same time with two INTJs, type coaches and social media lovers chatting.

Joe Arrigo is a newbie to the professional Type space. What started as a mild interest exploded into an obsession and a coaching business. His goal is to help people find their place in the world by bringing clarity to their personality type. Joe believes that the most important aspect to self-improvement is first knowing yourself. Everything else branches out from there. If a stubborn INTJ like Joe can have a transformation due to Typology, it can certainly do the same for others. He resides primarily on Linkedin and YouTube, and tries to bridge the gap between the Old Guard and New Guard of type.

Joe and I met on LinkedIn through our love for social media and via our mutual interest in personality and psychological type, particularly through the Australian Association for Psychological Type. (AusAPT). I’ve had the pleasure of attending Joe’s session at the AusAPT 2021 Conference on being a new type coach and learnt more about his journey in psychological type and personality. But there’s so much more I didn’t know about Joe and there was so much more to explore.

Today we will be speaking about Joe’s work in personality type and coaching, the magic of understanding type as a lens and language in life, being an INTJ and understanding your type, the power of focusing on your weaknesses, social media especially LinkedIn, social media and introverts, and how to be more visible on social media.

Before we head to the conversation with Joe, I want to let you know that The Writing Road Map is now open for enrolment. My friend, writing partner and brilliant writing teacher, Beth Cregan and I are your guides for this course which kicks off on Monday 28 February. This is a 6 week intensive to plan your writing project from beginning to end and map the supports and tools that will make it happen. It’s about planning your writing journey now and getting clear on your writing project direction, terrain, scope and path, instead of wasting time on dead ends and by-roads and procrastinating. Plus you’ll enjoy community support, accountability and guidance along the way to inspire you and keep you going.

What you’ll get:

6 x 90 minute weekly Masterclasses (60 min workshop + 30 mins Q&A)
1 x 2 hour virtual writing retreat
Guidance, skills & inspiration from 2 experienced writing teachers and authors
Weekly accountability prompts and follow-up
Community support & connection including via live calls and our private Facebook Group.

Plus a second bonus 2 hour virtual writing retreat with Beth and I if you sign up by midnight Monday 14 February AEDT Sydney time. So don’t delay!

So, if writing is a priority for you in 2022 – whether it’s writing a book, blog posts, a course, family history, anything at all, join us. Head to quietwriting.net/writing-road-map

An easy way to find them is to head to quietwriting.com/podcast and click on Episode 12 for the transcript of this intro and the podcast!.

Now let’s head into the interview with the fabulous Joe Arrigo.

Transcript of interview with Joe Arrigo

Terri Connellan: Hi Joe, welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.

Joe Arrigo: Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I just want to say upfront that I invited myself onto the show. I saw your posts on LinkedIn and I didn’t even know you had this thing going. So I was like, I absolutely need to be here. So thank you for letting me be here.

Terri Connellan: I’m so honored. That was great to receive your thought that you’d love to be on the show. I’m really excited to chat with you today. So we’ve connected around the personality, psychological type, via social media, and also through the Australian Association for Psychological Type where you joined us as a speaker at our recent conference, which was really exciting.

Plus we’re both INTJs so that’s really exciting to chat about how we see the world with similar preferences. So can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work you do now.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. So what I usually say is that I was in film school and that I did what every film graduate does is after they go into sales because the film doesn’t work. And, so I did sales and I was like, a sales development rep and I was doing cold calls and things like that. And I was a recruiter and then COVID hit and I got furloughed and then, I was just like, maybe this MBTI obsession that I have, I should try to do something with, while I have the perfect amount of time in life to do this. I probably would never get another time in life where I get to have like commission checks still coming in, but like, they’re paying me to not be there. Maybe I can try to get this business going.

And that’s kind of the quick story of the furlough allowed me the time to start doing MBTI work. And, I always say that it’s sort of a synchronistic Carl Jungian type, like the door opened and it was a signal and it was like fate and I just said, okay, I’m going to do this thing. So that’s the very short story. I thought I was going to do a lot of corporate workshops, but I really found passion one-on-one coaching. I think it’s the more intimate, the more you get to know people more that you can really apply type. I just thought that the corporate way would be better, but it’s not as good as doing one-on-one coach.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love one-on-one coaching too. And I think that’s that ability to really engage with individuals about their story that I love.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. It’s interesting. There’s a lot of like every story is unique and I believe that for the most part, but I think that every one is a puzzle. Not to solve. I don’t want to say to solve, but there’s a unique aspect about them that I think the INTJ is really well suited for. Like helping find that missing piece or something.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That’s a great way to think of it. I hadn’t thought of it as a skill for an INTJ coach to help solve the puzzle of the person. I guess that’s what I do, but you’ve said that beautifully. So thank you. That’s a great insight. So just to chat further about that, personality and psychological type of key frameworks that you employ in your work. Why did you choose to specialize there and how does type help people be more whole and self-aware?

Joe Arrigo: Well, I think type is universal. It’s always applied to people since we crawled out of the ocean type has always been something that applies and doesn’t matter what time period you’re living in. It doesn’t matter what age you grew up in, type can apply. You probably agree. We like the universal things, like personality type has always evolved, but like the core of the people stay the same, but it’s always evolving slowly over time.

So it really appealed to the authenticity, my Introverted Feeling, which was, I want to do something that is real work. And I was kind of doing jobs that were selling other people’s products or stuff that people didn’t need. So that really felt inauthentic to me. I also want it to be productive. It’s funny, I say this because I’m really good at LinkedIn, but there’s a lot of people that have made a career on being a LinkedIn coach or being a LinkedIn influencer, which is to me like the last stage of just like, it’s so meta for a job, but it doesn’t really help people. Personality type and psychology is always about helping people, so I think that’s what I gravitated towards.

And to answer your question about how to help them become more self-aware I think it’s that universal shared language that Jung created. Learning type is a new language. You are learning a new language. That is the hardest part. That’s where most people get stuck. But once you learn the language, you can articulate yourself to yourself or to other people in a way that previously you were like, I’m the only one that thinks this way. There’s no one else has ever had these thoughts before. And now you’re like, wow, this is what that’s called.

I think Ni [Introverted Intuition] for me was like, oh, that is the thing that I do. But before Jung, I don’t know if people knew what that was called, that shamanistic quality, I guess. I like to say that it’s when it’s that point in life, where you go from standard definition to 4K definition where you’re like, wow, I didn’t know what I wasn’t seeing.

It’s like when you put on glasses for the first time, you’re like, how did I live my life like blind before? How did I even function? And so that’s what I got out of it. And, I think it applies to most people.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love that. And I often say to people, working with personality type and understanding your type is like having an operator’s manual for your personality. So similar to what you’re saying, it’s that ability to have both the language and the framework. I often talk about frameworks to be able to make sense of…And you mentioned Ni which is that Introverted Intuition that we both share as a dominant function and certainly for me, and I know working with others, understanding what that Introverted Intuition for example is about and what it’s like and why I do what I do was just like magic. Wasn’t it?

Joe Arrigo: It is. I think all the functions have their own magic to them. I don’t know if you feel this way, but I think Introverted Thinking types are interesting to me because their capacity for deep diving into a subject or understanding that true essence of a thing is like unparalleled. But all the functions have their magic to it. I think in the community, there’s a rush to talk about Ni as if it’s like, the only one, the best one, that’s probably just like more NT types being in the community so they pump themselves up about it. But all of them are special, I think.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Just for those who are listening who don’t perhaps know about the types. There are 16 types, which you might’ve seen, the Jung/ Myers-Briggs types and we’re talking about INTJ, which we share. But as Joe has mentioned, all 16 types, all of the cognitive functions have their strengths, have their values and have their unique way of working.

And, there’s eight cognitive functions or cognitive processes, which came from Jung’s psychological type work. So, I’ll put some links in there for people who maybe want to know a little bit about that. So, I love that idea of that universal shared language. And where I really experienced that is at a type conference. And it’s the same on the internet, people who understand type, it’s just an ability to make connection as with any community where you have a shared language and shared understanding. But I think the real value for me is that it’s about personal development, personality development, understanding yourself and understanding others.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. And I’m writing something now. I don’t know where it’s going, but I’m writing something now about that’s why I value the one-on-one coaching is because it’s first about understanding yourself. And then only then can you do anything about your interpersonal relationships. So I think like presenting type to a bunch of newbies at a workshop has some utility, but you can’t get that nuanced approach that you can with a one-on-one. So I think that would be the way to go if anyone’s like here’s this podcast and wants to move forward. I would say like getting involved with a coach one-on-one is probably the best path for development, rather than a workshop or something.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I totally agree. I think the value of doing that deep inner work. And to me, it’s an ongoing thing. You start, you get your frameworks, you start to learn the language, the skills, get the insights, connect with other similar and different folks in different ways. And read the books and I think that group aspect and that interaction aspect is much stronger once you understand a bit more about yourself.

So we both have INTJ preferences as we’ve mentioned, so that’s introverted, intuitive, thinking, judging, and it is one of the rare of the types. So tell us about your personality type and the psychological insights you’ve gained over time that have helped you with self leadership and with personal growth.

Joe Arrigo: That’s so funny. People kept telling me that I had a bad memory and I was like, no, I have a good memory. I remember things. But then once I learned type and I learned the cognitive functions and I have memory for weird things, but I don’t have like a photographic memory.

So like first thing I learned was like my weaknesses, bad memory. The misunderstandings that come along with some of the jokes so that I would tell, or like the subtleties that I thought were really funny, but people didn’t understand it. I didn’t get why, what they didn’t get. And that was like part of the Extraverted Feeling that I’m not very good at.

So I learned my weaknesses and I go, okay, that’s what I have to deal with, these are my paths for growth. But some of the successes I attributed to being a pretty good thinker, extraverted thinking and taking action, being effective and not just having the wild-eyed idea, but then be like, okay, what are we going to do about it?

So I learned that, but then once you know what that’s called, then you know how to use it. If you don’t know what anything’s called, then you’re just like, assuming that you’re just walking around just like everyone else. So kind of like a zombie where you just don’t know you have no direction.

But, I think I learned that I had drive, that came out of my personality. Like I, and you probably feel this way, if you see something, you see the road very clearly, then it’s almost an inevitability that it’ll happen. As you get older, you’re just like, okay, I thought about it, I’ve planned. It. The only thing is like, when is it going to happen?

I learned that the worst thing to say to an INTJ is time is running out because like you want to accomplish all this stuff. But I learned that I had a vision that I couldn’t explain and that it wasn’t doing me any favors to try to explain something that I wasn’t really sure where all the dots were connecting or all the lines of best fit were coming together.

I thought it was funny that they would call INTJ’s a conspiracy theorist. And that’s just because the lines that connect don’t quite make a lot of sense. So I learned in my speech and when I pitch projects to people or pitch ideas, I have to be like, don’t take your crazy idea and tell them like, take the more linear approach and do it that way. So I learned that in the first one or two years of understanding myself.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I really relate to those too. As you were talking, I was thinking about how I’ve experienced similar things in my life. And one area is in leadership, for example. So I would know as a leader where I wanted to go, I could see the vision. I could see where I wanted to take people, but I really had to then break down that vision into the practicalities, the steps of, we need to do this and here’s why we need to do it. Both for myself and for other people. Because I think one thing that can happen if you’re not connected with the practicalities and tapping into the logical steps side of ourselves too, is get carried away with the vision itself. You’ll get it done, but maybe it’ll take longer because of not rooting yourself in the practicalities of it. Do you relate to that?

Joe Arrigo: I do. I do think we’re willing to try out a bunch of ideas and not be sad if they don’t work. But I do think that there is a bit of idealism that the INTJ has about how things will turn out. So I think like when Keirsey kind of put the NTs as the Rationals, I think NTs actually can be very idealistic about things too. So like, are you being practical with this idea? Like you’re going to create the first trillion dollar company? I don’t know. Joe, how do you think that’s going to happen?

Terri Connellan: The other example I thought of is when I come up with an idea, say for a group coaching program, it’s the sales page that is the hardest part for me. It’s how do I take what I know it’s going to look like, what I know is going to be great for people into language and into something that’s going to connect with people. And again, it’s tapping into that feeling and it’s almost like slowing yourself down to have a really good look at, so what is this actually going to do for people? And how can I put that into words?

Joe Arrigo: I struggle with that. I’ve struggled with this whole thing. And I talked to a lot of INTJs, NT types that for coaching, psychological type specially, personality, the ROI for our customer is not always apparent. If I’m a sales coach, I’m going to say, oh, in the next year, you’ll have a 10% better return because I’m going to write better sales scripts. Like it’s super easy to quantify that ROI. But for some people it’s like understanding yourself better isn’t a number. That you can go, like you’ll understand yourself 75% better, or you’ll have 33% better communication with your spouse. Like good luck trying to quantify that. I always go like, if people are asking, well, what am I going to get out of it? They’re not the right customer for me.

Terri Connellan: It’s funny, isn’t it? We’re talking about one particular personality type, but what we’re sharing too through how we’re talking is that this is the same, in a coaching conversation, in a one-on-one conversation, particularly using type insights, it’s clarity you can get to help you be clearer on your strengths, but also your blind spots.

Joe Arrigo: Yes. Sometimes I think just the weaknesses are better because your strengths are always going to be there. You’re just going to naturally either plateau or get a little better as you get older with your strengths, but the weaknesses are where you can have that real growth.

Sometimes, I think it’s just helpful to focus on the negatives out of the gate and manage the way forward. There’s some people that talk about balancing your functions or like doubling down. I think doubling down on your weaknesses or on strengths is good, but I don’t think you’ll balance. There’s no such thing. You’re just not going to balance like, be the same level of intensity and awareness of all of them.

Terri Connellan: I relate to what you’re saying. What I find in my coaching is I like to focus on areas for development and often it’s just one small thing which can be tweaked. Like it doesn’t have to be huge. Sue Blair’s particularly talked about how just making some minor differences, just a small tweak in some of areas which might be our weaknesses or our blind spots or our non preferences can make a huge difference to everything.

Joe Arrigo: It’s funny. It’s like you talk to, for those that know the type you can, you’ll laugh, but for those that know the ENTP, you’d be like, I think that sometimes ENTP can be a bit, you know, argumentative. They’re like, no we’re not. So it’s like, okay, you’re not even aware of that thing that you just did. So I think once you put that mirror up in front of people, they’re like, oh, I guess like everything’s a debate, even if I agree. So I think all the types have that moment, they all have it. If you’re, if you’re decent enough at coaching the model, they all have this revelation that’s life changing.

Terri Connellan: I think probably that journey we went through ourselves is exactly why we chose to get into type coaching, using type in our coaching because we saw the huge difference it made for us. So, I think the majority of us working in this field would have had that same revelatory moment.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I haven’t asked everyone about this, but I’m sure that like 99% of the people that are in type had that light bulb moment. Like there’s nothing else I can do with my life besides this now.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. For me, when I went through my transition, I made a list of my things I wanted to do to shift from the job I was in to the work that I do now. And top of that list was get skilled, more skilled in personality type. So it was right up there. So we met through social media, particularly LinkedIn, and you have a passion for social media and very active on LinkedIn. And you also have a great YouTube channel and you’ve got inspirational posts, great engagement. So interested to explore that area with you. Why do you engage so actively on social media and what do you love about it?

Joe Arrigo: I think it really gives me a chance to be more extraverted. Like there’s certainly a persona online. I do think my authenticity comes across. I’ve had many people say that I’ve met in person or just like had real intimate conversations with it. Like, oh, you’re the exact same person that is represented. So there’s not like a big change. I can just tell some people have a real difference in their persona and their real life.

And I think it’s just a good creative outlet for our type. I wasn’t really good at graphic design, but I knew that I was so jealous of people that could do it. So I learned through Canva and made some cool designs, then I started doing some memes and I’m like, I can learn this and I can expand my creative outlet, which I don’t think INTJs, are known as being very creative in the artistic sense. But I think, LinkedIn and social media gave me that outlet I would not have had before.

And then it gives me a place to reach people, possibly clients or reach people that just through normal networking I wouldn’t be able to meet. It gives me a chance to let all the vision and stuff come out and see how other people actually respond to it.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love seeing your posts and seeing how you interact with people. And I love too that you see it as a chance to be more extraverted and I think that’s true. It’s almost like being extraverted on your own terms, like choosing when you engage, choosing when to create the material, but then being able to connect with people, have the conversations you might have perhaps at a function if you were together, but asynchronistically in our terms, when it suits you, managing your energy. So, that’s an interesting perspective and I definitely agree, creativity is definitely a big one for me.

I love the creative aspect of social media. I tend to focus more on Instagram. That’s the place where I hang out. But, I love watching your LinkedIn and I think many could learn from how you bring that creativity, that engagement, and particularly memes and using video. You use video a lot too, don’t you?

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, it’s more time consuming. It gets less views and engagement on LinkedIn, but, I’m just convinced and many books have been written about this, that they see you, they see how your mannerisms are, they see how you talk, my wife is in a lot of my new videos.

So like Joe is a real person, he doesn’t have like a PR team of social media managers that are answering his emails or stuff like that. So when they’re ready to engage with me, if they’re like, oh, it’s like, this is the guy, I already know him. So that helps a lot with building trust because you need that with what we do.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And it’s just a fantastic way to connect. Connecting with people in the field, like, Dario Nardi and the guys from Personality Hackers, yourself. Authors for example, I love connecting with people who’ve written the books that I read. I just think that’s gold.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. Gosh, I really took a different path. I read a lot. I read all the books before I got really involved with the YouTube community. I’ve been kind of making my way through a lot of the books. I know that you have a book, right? Is it fiction?

Terri Connellan: Yeah, my book’s, Wholehearted, it’s nonfiction, self-leadership for women in transition, and I weave personality type into that book.

Joe Arrigo: Okay. Well, that’ll be one I’ll have to read then I’ll have to get a signed copy though. So, and I think I’ve had some luck. I’ve had some people kind of pull some strings on my behalf. I just interviewed Linda Berens, which is great. I got to interview John Beebe, Dario, of course. So yeah, those are the people that really have pioneered parts of personality type that we need that knowledge, especially as a young type coach. I wouldn’t go to YouTube right away before you have the basics, like have the real structure of it settled. So, I’ve been really fortunate to talk to those people.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, and I think that ability to have conversations like this, or I know you do the LinkedIn shorts for example, have chats with people. So it’s all great ways to connect and to learn, to engage and do it on our own terms and in ways we can manage our energy as introverts particularly. So do you have any specific tips for LinkedIn given it’s a platform that operates a little differently? A lot of people in my community for example, are on Instagram and Facebook, not so much on LinkedIn and I know some people find it more challenging than other platforms. So what tips do you have for LinkedIn, for people engaging or getting into that platform?

Joe Arrigo: To come up with a consistent way that you can provide or create content. I wouldn’t say get as stringent as a content calendar, but be consistent. If you’re going to post, make yourself post a certain amount of times per week, around the same time so people get used to that. People follow you. They might not consciously know, but they’re like, Joe always posts at 7 45 Eastern time and he’s always in the morning. And so that helps to be consistent. It also makes you create content. I think consistency is better than like the absolute best content in the world. Some people say, don’t post, unless it’s fabulous content, but most LinkedIn influencers and people that have grown a decent audience will say consistency is the most important thing.

I would say have a real opinion that’s not manufactured. Commenting on the new story of the day is great, but it doesn’t provide anything new. So if you’re not going to be adding something new or unique or a new spin. Think of something, keep thinking until there’s something like, wow, that’s a unique thought.

Respond to comments. A lot of people post and then never respond to their audience. So that’s a quick way to alienate people like, oh, he’s just in it to get likes and clicks and he is not in it to actually engage. I hate when people do that. And then proactively connect with people. So don’t wait for your inbox to fill up with invites. For six months, I was only searching for people by their type on LinkedIn and a ton of people put their types. I was just doing quotes, INTJ. And I was like adding all the INTJs I could find.

And then I did ISTJ the next day. So then you can connect. Then I was doing MBTI certified. And then I was finding all the MBTI folks. So that’s how I built up the community that way. And then just mix up your content, videos, memes, texts, pictures. Don’t just be a text poster.

Some people will definitely disagree with me. I know there’s one person who’s like all text posts cause it helps algorithm. But I think seeing your face on video really is helpful even though it’s way more work. So I think those would be my tips.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, great. That’s so much value in those quick tips you’ve given us. And, I think that idea of proactively connecting, particularly around the content that you’re creating and going, seeking out connections is a really great tip and it can apply to anything, can’t it? Like if you’re in recruitment or coaching or authors for example, anything you do, you could use that same technique.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I do some side coaching on LinkedIn. I don’t advertise it, but people will just ask me if I can help. You would be so shocked at what people will put on their, About section on LinkedIn. That’s a searchable term. You could just put like, A Trak enthusiast or collector of stamps. Put that in on LinkedIn. And there’ll be like thousands of people that are into that, that you just didn’t realize they put it out there in the world. And now you have a whole new audience of people to talk to. So ridiculous search terms are the way to go.

Terri Connellan: Interesting. Yeah. I wonder if some of the challenges people have, probably people like me, is because they used it in a corporate sense in their job role. So it was more a way to say, well, here I am, here’s what I do, not that way of connecting. So it’s actually a mindset shift to see LinkedIn in a different way.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, most people aren’t their jobs. Like on their gravestone, they’re not putting digital marketer, I guarantee you they’re putting something else. So that’s a better place to connect with them is what they’re about, not what their title is and all that stuff.

Terri Connellan: Yeah and your YouTube channel is fantastic. I was just hopping in there to have a look at your latest and you had a fantastic video there about why the INTJ will end up poor and homeless, which was a great grab title about why we don’t see money as a primary focus, which I’d again, totally agree with. I’m married to an ISTJ as I know you are. And that was a great move.

Yeah. I think, again, it’s just an example on YouTube, you’re obviously doing different content, maybe some cross-fertilization, but using this specific channel in a way that’s going to reach people on that platform.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I think dynamism or being dynamic is interesting because there are more facets to people. So like I have my professional LinkedIn persona, but then I also have like a whole other field, which is YouTube, where it’s obviously a lot more informal, but it’s kind of funny but it’s still helpful because it’s still all around types as a professional use of type. And then there’s like a fun use of type. But I have booked some of my closest clients through YouTube. So you just never know what’s going to get people to be like, oh, Joe, what you said about being poor and homeless, like really resonated with me. I’d love your help. Like you never know.

Terri Connellan: That’s great. I love seeing the way you work, and there’s plenty to learn from engaging with you and connecting with you. So recommend that to folks.

Given you have so much and produced so much fabulous content and engagement, people must be wondering how much time you spend, what helps you to keep up such a regular schedule of posting and interacting. So if you could share a bit about that with us, that would be great.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I kind of said something about like a content calendar. I don’t have a content calendar. What I have was that running idea list and now it’s muscle memory now that like I gotta post, I was like four times a week. So I have a constant note that says, make a new meme, write a new blog. Probably like 25% of my posts are not planned. They’re just spur of the moment that like that Ni lightning hits you and you’re like, I gotta do this post right now, but that’s like 10% of the time. So you can only do it if you’re passionate about the subject.

Like if you hate what you do, you will not be able to post that consistently. You’ll be so like, your soul will die a little bit each time you have to post. But for MBTI, there’s limitless possibilities.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, for sure. My problem’s often, what do I post today? Cause there’s so many ideas buzzing around, but, I like that idea of just having a running ideas list. I think sometimes too, we can over-complicate things.

Joe Arrigo: I think that people that are in situation need to just start. Just throw an idea out there. It may not do well at all. I had the same conversation with Sue Blair right after my presentation. And she did three or four really good posts that got like incredible engagement. And she was like, oh, Joe, this actually was really good. And I’m like, yeah, all you gotta to do is start. You have so much knowledge. Like, you’re basically like holding back humanity by not putting your knowledge out there.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, they were a fabulous posts. It’s just a reminder for all of us, working at our zone of genius and where we want to show up how we want to show up and what ideas we want to put together and just putting that together. So, one thing I’ve noticed is working with clients is visibility and vulnerability is something that particularly some types seem to struggle with more than others or maybe it’s individuals. So have you noticed any patterns around type or do you find it’s more an individual thing that issue of visibility and vulnerability in social media?

Joe Arrigo: Well, I do think it is a type thing. I think it’s more the F types you see engaging. So either introverted feeling types or extroverted feeling types tend to be very into vulnerability. There definitely is a shift towards mental health and the celebration of those who talk openly about mental health across the world with the pandemic, even more. So I think that those types are much more okay with being visible as someone that’s had mental health issues or struggles, or saying, ‘Hey, if you are struggling, reach out to me, I’ll help you.’ Or ‘can I help you?’ I think that is more the F type if you want to just speak broadly. F types tend to be more open with the visibility and vulnerability aspect of social media.

But you can almost see the types so clearly in a discussion, especially in argument, how some people want to argue very factually or they only post memes about facts or they actively say like, stop crying about this. Like you can clearly see the TF dichotomy so clearly, I think that’s the easiest one to see is like that dichotomy of which types are willing to be more controversial, argumentative. There’s some people that’ll just like back down from an argument and that might be more of an F type. Like they’re agreeing with everyone. They don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. So they’re like, yeah, thanks for your input. I appreciate it. Yeah, you could see that there. Do, do you see that? Let me ask you that question.

Terri Connellan: I work a lot with NF clients, INFJ, INFP, and I do notice that for some of those folks, the connection is really important, but what I see is that, it’s almost like, every post has got to be right. This connection, the feeling has gotta be right. So it’s almost too much, becomes too challenging. And I also say that that people who tend to have those types tend to be the ones saying I’ve got to step off social media. I need a break. I need some time and I’ve said that before, I very rarely feel that. To me, it’s just part of my everyday. I’ll post beautiful birds on my deck and on Instagram and I’ll share about the books I’m reading. And sometimes I’ll do much more crafted posts related to my book or my content, but social media isn’t a drain to me. So that’s one thing I see and, if people need to do that, that’s what they need to do. It’s not a criticism. It’s just an observation and everybody’s different. And certainly for me, I don’t find social media drains my energy, for example,

Joe Arrigo: There are certain times when it drains me but I do think that certain types are much more effected by what’s going on, on social media that day. Like if there’s some sort of political event or there’s some sort of social unrest, they see too many people posting negative things, they actually have physical sensations of like depression or like something will happen to them so that that’s when they’ll take the breaks, as you said, that’s a good point. That would be an interesting experiment just to get the data. You don’t need the data we know, but, yeah, that they are more likely to just take a mental health break.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s right. So I think that’s a really good observation too. So lots of different ways we all engage with social media, some of them influenced by personality, some by individuals and some by what’s coming into our feed. Interesting to have a look at those issues. So what tips would you provide for people who want to be more visible on social media and on podcasts, but find it challenging?

Joe Arrigo: I think the first thing would be to be extremely good, looking that’s number one, just kidding.

Well, like I mentioned, you really just have to find something that you could do a presentation on right now. Has to be a topic that any second of the day, you could do a speech on it, cause that means that you have enough content in your brain, that you could be visible in your niche, whatever your passion is about. So that’s the first thing you got to figure out what that is. I think that people will find it challenging are those, there are certain types of tend to have like analysis paralysis. I think the INTJ falls into this. I think a lot of thinking types might fall in this as well, where they just need to get one more search or they just need to read one more book or they need to take one more LinkedIn class before they can finally, I’ll be an expert and I can start talking about the subject.

If that is your goal, you’ll never be ready to get out there and post on social media. It’s kind of a sales technique, but give yourself like 30 days, 30, 60, 90 days, see where you’re at. You might post and get zero likes and then just get depressed and no one likes your content, but you gotta be consistent or you’ll never really know. So, I think to answer your question, start with something you could talk all day about, and then chop it up into little anecdotes or content.

Terri Connellan: Great. I love that. It’s nice and simple. And I think like a lot of things it’s just starting and learning from doing rather than trying to get it perfect. For a lot of people if we looked back on our early attempts at social media, it’d be nothing like what we’re doing now, because we’ve been on the journey. We’ve connected with more people, we’ve learnt skills along the way. So, I think encouraging people to hop in and have a go and do different things. But yeah, definitely start with what you know, where you feel comfortable’s a really good tip. So thanks for that. So a question I’m asking each of the guests on the create your story podcast is a big question, but interesting to see what comes to mind for people. How have you created your story of your lifetime?

Joe Arrigo: Man. I’m one of those people that like, every time I hear this thing about what is your story? People want to hear your story? Like, I never think it’s interesting. I’m just like, it’s really basic. There’s nothing like, people have to hear this because once they hear Joe’s story, like, oh my gosh, those people are going to be booking you like crazy. And all these book deals are going to be coming in. And, how have you created your story?

Terri Connellan: Something that’s been a real driver or a purpose, or maybe some learning that you learned early on, it’s something you can consistently provide. Some people commented, and it’s interesting looking at type is that it’s tended to be, they’ve just done what they’ve done. And then they’ve had a backwards view to see what actually worked. So is it intentional?

Joe Arrigo: I think it became intentional, like I think my story has been one of striving for intelligence, or some sort of universal knowledge that can be applied, like finding the essential truth. Recently there was a quote I saw from Tesla, who’s an INTJ and he said something like, my brain is only a receiver and that’s how I in through that, I get the secrets of the universe.

And I was like, that is exactly what I’ve been doing. Like every thing I want to do or strive for is like an essential truth or how things are, how things are all connected. So in 2020 I made a goal to read a hundred books and I read 105 and I was like, okay, that’s great. And that’s a goal that I could accomplish, put my mind to it.

But within that is like, I want to be a sponge for knowledge, because eventually I’ll take that and I’ll do something amazing. So I think that is my story arc is lifelong learning will lead to some sort of universal discovery that I can then apply to everyone. I think that’s going to be my arc. I don’t think I’m going to be a millionaire. I don’t think I’m going to be like, Forbes 40 under 40, anything like that, but I don’t think that would match the profile of me as an INTJ.

Terri Connellan: I love that idea of essential strengths, patterns, how things are connected and that idea of investing yourself in books, in learning, discovering things, that universal discovery, the patterns. Again, that’s very introverted intuiting, the patterns, how things connect and then making new connections, new insights to share with others.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. And just to go back to the Tesla thing, I think that all the types, as dumb as it sounds at the beginning, all the types need to find a type that inspires them historically. Like Personality Database whatever you think about the site, it’s kind of funny, but it’s all user driven typing, but they’ve typed everybody from everywhere across the world. And every literature, non-fiction, fiction, like everything that can be typed has been typed. And you go to INTJ, you look at the historical figures, political figures, authors, and you read those authors books, or you read the story about like, I’m reading a book on Elon right now. I’ve read a book on Bobby Fischer. And I’m like, these guys have the same in a way mindset that I did and look what they did. So an ENFP could do the same thing with famous ENFPs, read their story, read their struggles, like, cause I believe things are cyclical. So if you can see where things are going or other ENFPs or ISFPs have been, I think that’ll be more valuable than just randomly reading books, because like they’re a top seller.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. I did my training with Mary McGuiness, who you might know, the Australian psychological type leader, and she’s a great lover of memoir and story, and biography. And when you’re training with her and spend time with her, she’s talking about people’s stories and that’s what I’m interested in too, that idea of, as you’ve just mentioned, read the memoir, find the inspiring stories, find people, maybe like you and look at their life story and see what you can learn from it. So, that’s great advice. So the other question I’m asking folks, in my book Wholehearted, is about self-leadership for women in transition, applicable to men as well and I have 15 wholehearted self-leadership tips in there. So I’m just interested in what your top wholehearted leadership tips and practices might be, whatever that means to you. So, again, just drawing from your experience, what would you draw out as a few key tips to give to others, to help them with leading themselves through life?

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, this is a question that comes up in my coaching and I was going to mention it earlier, but, this is a perfect time for it. First thing it’s like, Fi, it’s the, what’s your values? What’s your inner compass? Most people will not admit it. They really won’t. When you say, what do you want to do? They’ll give you like some answer that’s not actually what they want to do. Because either they’re embarrassed that society would say, oh, no, you want to do that? No, that’s never going to make any money or that’s so childish or like, how are you even going to do that? So they, they just don’t tell you really what they want to do.

Like, I want to do greeting cards. I want to write greeting cards. I feel like they’re never gonna make any money. So they just don’t, they’re not honest with themselves. So then they pursue things that are like only half-heartedly into. So I would say like your north star, whatever you want to call it then once you do that, you can have passion towards actually accomplishing your goals. Like, in terms of self-leadership, it’s kind of funny because I really have been promoting the 8 Keys to Self-leadership book by Dario, which is kind of a perfect way to just open the book, look at any page and go, oh, can I do that well? Oh, I need to really ask myself this question about introverted sensing. Am I making the same mistakes a bunch or something like that?

In terms of self-leadership I was doing an interview with another INTJ and he said the first thing is make sure you’re not lying to yourself or make sure that you’re internally consistent with your beliefs. Like don’t criticize people for being overweight and drinking while you’re at a bar. You know what I mean? So I think that’d be the number one thing is don’t deceive yourself, which is why I get so upset with people when they use their title, their position, as a way to say that I don’t need to develop. I’m already the C-level person at this company. Like I’m done, but that’s just, self-deception right there.

Terri Connellan: I love that. Just starting with your values, which for some people will be quite natural and for others, it won’t be so natural. Your values I guess are pretty consistent, but they get shaped over time and you’re clear about them over time. So I think that’s great advice. And Dario’s book, 8 Keys to Self-leadership there. Dario Nardi. It’s mentioned in my book. It’s a great resource which I use a lot in my coaching as well.

And it’s that idea that it’s each of the eight cognitive processes and functions. And as you’ve said, just that ability to open it any page and have a think about, introverted thinking, extraverted feeling, where does that sit? You don’t have to have a huge knowledge of personality type to just dive in and understand more.

And Dario’s a very accessible author and based on neuroscience. So it’s a great place to start. So, yeah. Thanks for that tip too. Okay. So, that wraps up our conversation for today. It’s been a fantastic chatting with you. Where can people find more about you and your work online?

Joe Arrigo: I would say first, thank you for having me. This is really fun. I could talk double this amount of time about personality types. So could you. So thank you for having me. This has been awesome. And I really think LinkedIn is the place where I’m at the most. I respond to direct messages. You don’t need to fill out a form. It won’t take me 24 hours to get back to you. So if you want to engage, we can do LinkedIn. My YouTube channel is Ghost of Jung so I also respond to comments there, but I honestly say LinkedIn is the place to start.

Terri Connellan: Great. I’ve certainly loved connecting with you on LinkedIn, and you’re definitely a great person to engage with, your posts themselves, but also just chatting and getting to know you. And I know many people have taken that opportunity and I encourage others to do the same.

So thanks again, Joe. It’s been a real pleasure talking with you today. And yeah, I agree. We could chat all day about all these fascinating topics. But I hope what we’ve shared will be really of interest to people and gives them some tips for going further with social media, with psychological type, with thinking about themselves. So thank you. Appreciate you spending the time chatting today. Take care.

Joe Arrigo: It’s been great. Thanks Terri.

About Joe Arrigo

You can connect with Joe:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-arrigo/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/GhostofJung/videos

Calendly to book a time: https://calendly.com/advisr/30min

MailChimp (to get on Joe’s newsletter ) http://eepurl.com/htJ2XH