Valuing Difference Through Type with Sue Blair

April 19, 2022

Personality type as a guide to understanding yourself and valuing different ways of operating and living.

Welcome to Episode 15 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Valuing Difference Through Type

I’m joined by Sue Blair – Personality Type Coach & Educator, Author, Speaker and Resource Creator.

We chat about Sue’s 20 plus year passion for personality and psychological type and how she works with educators, parents, careers advisors, young people and type practitioners to communicate type concepts clearly and simply as a guide for living and decision-making. Sue has ESTJ preferences – so is extraverted and sensing in preference. With a focus on introversion and intuiting in our chats and guest profiles so far in the podcast, you’ll notice the difference in style chatting with Sue! We explore extraversion and introversion, sensing and intuiting and valuing differences in people and ourselves through type.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

Parenting children who have very different personality types
How type can help educators, parents and young people
Offering choices for different personalities in educational contexts
Lenses of type: Cognitive Processes, Temperament and Interaction Styles.
‘Simplexity’ as Sue’s signature style in type work
Common misconceptions about introverts and extraverts
Being extraverted in preference including in covid times
Differences between Sensing and Intuiting preferences.
How type helps you be comfortable in yourself and value difference
Reframing Imposter Syndrome and self-doubt

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 15 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 19th of April as I record this.

II’m excited to have Sue Blair, Personality Type Coach and Educator, Speaker, Author and Resource Creator join us for the podcast today. More on Sue and our conversation in a moment.

But first, I want to share a personal update and an exciting new program open for enrolment now. I’ve been busy shaping up The Writing Road Trip community writing program I’m leading with my writing partner Beth Cregan. We kick off on 2 May for 6 months of writing together and enrolment is open now if you want to join in. There’s an early bird 10% off now before Thursday 21 April, 9am AEST so if you’re listening before then, take advantage of that. The Writing Road Trip focuses on accountability, community and support to help you write what’s in your heart with the companionship of others. We’ve shaped up a program based on what worked to help us write our books and we know it will help you with your writing practice. Plus we’ll have a ton of fun along the way. You can find out more here:

Find out more about The Writing Road Trip

Now onto today’s fabulous conversation with Sue Blair. Sue has been working with psychological type for 20 years. She is an international presenter and keynote speaker, as well as a qualified MBTI practitioner and adult educator. She is the author of The Personality Puzzle coaching cards, now used worldwide by coaches and counsellors. She has taught thousands of teachers, parents, students and businesses about the importance of self-awareness and communication. Sue is the recipient of the APTi 2015 Gordon Lawrence Award. This award recognises an outstanding achievement to the field of education.

Sue and I met as fellow psychological type practitioners through the Australian Association for Psychological Type. New Zealand based, Sue is a valuable and sought-after contributor to international conferences and forums on psychological type. I’ve had the pleasure of attending several workshops and conference presentations led by Sue. They are always immense fun and incredibly practical. Sue’s teaching and sharing about personality work is characterised by strong roots in educational work, use of images and graphics such as through her Personality Puzzle coaching cards and stunningly clear descriptions about personality types. And with more than 20 years’ experience in the field, all her work is enriched by deep knowledge and experience.

Sue has ESTJ preferences so is Extraverted and a Sensing in preference and with many Introverts and Intuitives, like me on the show so far, I was keen to explore different preferences in conversations with guests. We focus on this and on personality preferences generally and how they play out in practice to value difference in all kinds of ways in this episode.

I hope it inspires you to explore more about how personality insights can help you with self-leadership and self-knowledge.

So let’s head into the interview with Sue.

Transcript of interview with Sue Blair

Terri Connellan: Hello Sue and welcome to the Create Your Story podcast.

Sue Blair: Hi Terri, thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Terri Connellan: Thank you for your connection. And I can’t wait to explore more about you and about psychological type today. So we’ve connected in many ways around personality and psychological type as part of AusAPT the Australian Association for Psychological Type and the global type community. And it’s great to be able to share those conversations. So can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work that you do now.

Sue Blair: Yes, absolutely. So, way back a while ago, I was born in London. I am the youngest of five. And, we’ll come onto this later, but I am the only extrovert in the whole family. I have a twin sister who is my absolute opposite in type. My preferences are ESTJ. My lovely twin sister is INFP. I started out business wise in the travel industry and really enjoyed it. That’s something that came very easily to me. I worked in business travel. It seemed to suit all of my requirements, meet my needs, got into management and into sales and was a sales manager for quite a while before I then stopped to have children.

So I met and married my lovely husband, John, who has ENTP preferences. We actually met commuting on the underground. Clearly being an ENTP, he wasn’t following any of the rules that you don’t speak to anybody on the underground and somehow or other, we got to be married and 33 years later, we still are. So, always an interesting experience to marry someone who’s totally your opposite, but a good learning opportunity, I think.

So we moved to New Zealand 25 years ago. I moved with an 18 month old and then had my son James here. So we have two children Louisa, who has ISTJ preferences and James who is ENTP. So not a huge amount of diversity in the family, but my goodness, parenting those two incredibly different children was what really got me into psychological type.

I found out about it through doing a parenting course when I was in New Zealand and it completely resonated with me and I kind of got well, would obsessed be the right word? I’m not entirely sure, but I just thought this is the most helpful thing that I have ever discovered about parenting. And it’s so clear to me that I had these two children who were different and if I parented them the same, then things were going to go downhill rather quickly.

So Louisa, unsurprisingly was somewhat more like me, although that difference between extroversion and introversion was very clear from the outset. And then parenting James, I just had to learn a whole new set of skills.

And so getting them through the school system was also very, very different. Louisa was born for school. She accelerated herself. She was just like a pig in mud really. She was happy other than socially, sometimes she found it difficult. And James was just a square peg in a round hole. And we just had to get him through, those 13 years until he exited and is now doing very well, thankfully.

But it was that experience, that personal experience that really introduced me to type, and I can remember going to a workshop, a Myers-Briggs workshop and listening to a really lovely woman presenting on time and just sitting there going, I want to do what she’s doing. And eventually I did get to do that, but not necessarily in the corporate world. Yes. I have gone back to the corporate world and done a lot of work with teams and that’s a place that I feel very happy. But I really did want to use type to help parents, to help young people, to help teachers, to help educators. Because it was really difficult. It was a real challenge to get an ENTP through school, my ENTP through school.

And so really I’d like to alleviate some of the headaches and just help people understand that people are going to learn differently. And that means that you can make that journey a lot easier. So I now work with teachers, with educators. I’ve done a lot of work with teenagers, helping them understand themselves, and more recently working a lot with careers advisers in schools, because I really do believe that we’ve got a lot of young people who are making choices that are not as well informed as they could be.

So the work that I’ve been doing has been in educating the careers advisors within the school or university environment to say include this. But this is not the only thing that you need to know, but please include something on personality types so that the young people who you are working with get an understanding of themselves and why either a job environment might suit them or not, or why a particular career option that they’re looking at might suit them or not. Bearing in mind that we’re not matching a career with a type. You know, we’re not saying that people of this type can only do this sort of career. The world is your oyster in many, many ways.

But it is absolutely necessary to see the essence of somebody. And just say, let’s just discuss this and maybe look at some other options. So it opens up the conversation as soon as a young person feels that they’ve got that self-awareness piece in mind.

Terri Connellan: That’s fascinating. And it’s always amazing to hear how people’s life experiences have taken them down a path and into their passions. And your work really focuses in educational contexts obviously from the expriences that you’ve been through, working with teachers, working with students, working with teenagers and career advisors. So can you tell our listeners a little bit more about this work and the value of type in these contexts, cause I’m sure there’s just so much value for people in educational contexts.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. I really love working with educators and I’ve worked with them at all sorts of different levels going from early childhood through primary, through to high school and in almost every setting, as soon as we start talking about personality type, they just look at me aghast and they just start saying, why did we not learn this at our teacher’s education college? What was missing? This is an enormous piece of the puzzle that was missing. And I think they’re absolutely right.

It really is the case that you have to know the people who you are speaking to, or at least understand difference. So what we are not saying, you know, obviously in a high school context, it gets even more difficult at the younger years, it’s a little bit easier. But we are not saying that you have to teach to everyone’s personality type a hundred percent of the time, but you have to offer choices within the classroom that is going to appeal to all students at some point in time.

And it is definitely the case that they often learn most, in some cases, from doing something that doesn’t fit their natural style. But unless they’ve got that knowledge that some of the time their needs are going to be met, then they can find the learning environment very difficult indeed. So it’s a question of offering choices.

What does that mean to both the educators and to the students, but also a lot of the time, we’re looking at team-building within schools because teachers work in clusters and more and more now we have the modern learning environment. And that means that teachers are working very closely together. So I do work closely with my local primary school, where both my children went to school and they now have a modern learning environment where they’ve got three teachers who have 90 children for the year.

And that means that it’s far harder for them to know how the child is progressing all of the time. They can manage 30 children and they get to know them throughout the year. Really getting the same level of connection with 90 children is not that possible. And also to be able to connect well, and work well with the other teachers who are working in that same situation. So how they get on, what their personalities are, how they can really leverage each other’s strengths and understand that you don’t have to be good at everything. You can have some gaps, you can have some holes, but if they work in a team where they’ve got multiple preferences, then you can really work together, everybody working to their strengths and everybody having a trust in each other that they can ask for help.

So I spent quite a lot of my time doing that as well. So it’s not just, how do you teach a child who’s different to me, but how do we get on as adults and also, how do we manage? One of the things that I find working in corporate life is that there are plenty of people who are given training on managing your staff, but nobody or very rarely are you given some training on how to manage up. How do you actually manage your boss? Because your boss is one of the most important peoples in your life. The person who is managing you, you need that connection to go well. So how does that look? And how can I make some changes? What sort of perspective shifts can I make in order to make that relationship work?

And that’s the same in schools or in corporate or in families. Everywhere you go, your personality is your permanent companion and you carry it with you wherever you go. So. Yeah, being able to cut and paste to different situations is really important.

Terri Connellan: Yes. And I’ve had the great opportunity of attending workshops with you and had so much value from those workshops, particularly where you’ve emphasized the three lenses of type, the idea of cognitive processes, temperament and interaction styles and also the fantastic visual resources that you use.

All of the things that you mentioned, it’s about understanding ourselves, but it’s how we work with others, how we work with our children and how we work with children as teachers, how we manage up and absolutely that understanding your boss, understanding how your team works. All of those are just such critical life skills. I agree. And why did we not learn this? is absolutely a question I’ve asked myself too. So, and you also said early on, it’s like a piece of the puzzle missing. Is that why you called your cards Personality Puzzle?

Sue Blair: I guess it was in a way, other than there’s a beautiful alliteration having Personality Puzzles. But you know what? I was sort of thinking about names and I was like, puzzling it through and I was thinking, okay, this seems like a good way to go because it is. Every family unit is different. Every working unit is different. And I’ve been doing this work, for 20 years plus, and I’m not bored with it yet because there’s always a different puzzle. There’s always something else that you haven’t sort of considered so yeah, probably.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I had a chat with Joe Arrigo, who I know you also know, recently. He talked about in coaching, he sees personality as a puzzle, he said not to be solved, but a puzzle to sort of put the pieces together.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. And you mentioned there those three lenses, which I think are invaluable. So having the cognitive processes, temperament and interaction styles, I consider them as being a bit like spinning plates. You know, when I’m doing some coaching with someone. I’m like, have I have, I twizzled that plate? Have I gone through all three? And you’re just gathering the information and then coaching in relation to what you’re hearing, but definitely using those three elements of type, those three perspectives, I find incredibly helpful.

Terri Connellan: They’re so valuable. So how would you describe your signature style in your personality type work?

Sue Blair: I often use a word that I kind of made up, which is ‘simplexity’. And I rather like it because it really, I think puts across the fact that we have to make things simple.

You know, if we’re going to get to speak to people who are not type practitioners, then we have to make it as simple as possible. But I certainly want to honor the complexity of the model. You know, we are all very complex people. We are all this dynamic and incredible mixture of physics, chemistry, and biology. We are complex human beings. The human brain is the most complex thing on the planet, so many people say.

But trying to make it simple, I think as an ESTJ, my type preferences are pretty unusual in the type community. When I go to type conferences, probably 10 or 20% of people have a sensing preference and I love hanging out with you intuiting guys. I think you’re fabulous. I love the way that you think about things and you explore and you’re so curious about everything. But my goodness, you can make things complicated from time to time.

So I think my role within the type community is one that can just get through some of that, make things more simple, use a process to help people understand that involves grounded descriptions, communication style that is perhaps more direct. And getting to the point quickly. Because we haven’t got time. We are all time poor. So the more we can make the most of the time then, hopefully I provide resources that allow people to do that.

Terri Connellan: Oh, you absolutely do. And I mentioned your Personality Puzzle and Type Trilogy cards as we’ve talked and they’re fantastic resources because they’re very visual and they do make the complex clearer. And, when I’m coaching, if I’m working with a client, I grab those cards. I have them around me as resources to prompt me, which I find really helpful. And yeah, they’re great. And your LinkedIn posts that you’ve done recently are just fabulous. You look like you’re really enjoying that social media work.

Sue Blair: Well, the first time in my life, I can actually say that I am enjoying social media and I have to thank Joe Arrigo for that who got me onto it. Because I was just wondering, what do you do with this? How do you communicate with the world about something that you find that so important without kind of being too salesy. And he really got me into this frame of mind that you just share what you know, and I’ve just been really happy doing that. I’m not trying to sell anybody, anything. I might mention a few things that I’m involved with, but you know, after 20 years of trying to put across this message on type, I’ve got a few tricks up my sleeve.

And I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed on a weekly basis, putting some information out there that has been something that I’ve learnt along the way. And I’ve been to what I have been to dozens of type conferences by now, which are all fantastic. I enjoy it. If I come away with three or four things that I’ve learnt, that I can describe a bit differently then it’s just a wonderful experience.

And just being with a whole group of type enthusiasts is fantastic. So I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed sharing that and getting the comments back. It’s been a joy and a pleasure, I have to say.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s been really well-received. And Sue you have preferences for extroversion. Can you explain what this means in practice and how it plays out in your life?

Sue Blair: Absolutely. I think it certainly was striking. As I mentioned to you before I come from a largish family, there’s five children and my two parents and I am the only extrovert in the family. I’m in my fifties now. But it was just a few years ago that my mum said to me, you know, that must have been quite difficult for you. Yeah, it really was. I went out a lot. I had a fairly quiet sort of cerebral household that I came back to. And I’d walk through the door and go, Ooh, I’m home. And there was this sort of collective rolling of eyes. Yeah, you came through the door and the rest of us knew about it. So that’s been interesting and also, raising a highly introverted child, my daughter, Louisa has been a really interesting experience too. And as I mentioned again, before my twin sister has preferences for introversion.

So, how it plays out in my life is, it didn’t take me long to realise that I needed that need met hugely. I think it allows me to understand that that is not something that I can let go of, that I do need to communicate with other people. I do need connection with other people and I’ve needed it all my life. You know, this is something that has never changed.

Even though I’m working from home a lot, sometimes I’m working by myself, I do organize my day so that I can get that need met in any way that I can. Often it is just going for walks. It’s just connecting up with people. If I look over my week, I’ve got meetings, I’ve got people I’m seeing, I’ve got things I’m doing. And you know, there’s wonderful occasions where I’m doing workshops, which is fantastic. I get my tank filled on a regular basis. But I understand it. I think I’ve also got a bit of a handle on when I’m too much. I do sort of have this understanding that, there are times when I need to sort of stop now and just quieten down a bit.

When I go to see my sister, it’s quite funny, an INFP and her partner is an INTP and they have a lovely quiet life together in a very small village in England. And I stayed with them for a week. And I think I knew more people in the village at the end of the week than they’d known living there for three years. But they’re also very appreciative of my need and they love me arriving, but I’m pretty sure when I go, it’s, ‘okay well, we got through that little sort of hurricane that just came through our house.’

Terri Connellan: So it must have been difficult as a person with extroverted preferences over the past two years with COVID impacts. So how was that for you and how did type insights help you navigate these times?

Sue Blair: Oh I think I have never been more thankful for understanding type. So my situation was possibly somewhat extreme in many ways. So I visited my elderly parents who both live on the small island of Alderney in the Channel Islands, which is an English island, but just off the coast of France. And I was visiting my parents who are in their nineties. This was in March of 2020, and basically I got stuck there. So they needed some assistance at the time. And we got to the point where covid was shutting everything down. And in New Zealand, either you got back by the 31st of March, or you had no idea how long you’d be away for. The whole place was sort of shutting.

And it wasn’t possible for me to leave. My parents needed me at that point in time. And so I said, I can’t go, I’ll have to stay here. Anyway, I was on the island for five months. So this was tricky in many ways. I didn’t have my usual routine. I didn’t have structured.

In fact, out of any of the needs that you could possibly think of that an ESTJ might need, absolutely all of them were taken away. So I couldn’t work at pace. I couldn’t be productive doing my own work. I was looking after my parents and I have to say, I do adore my parents, the pace was glacial. It was so slow.

Terri Connellan: And it’s not a big island, is it?

Sue Blair: It’s a very, very small island and I walked every single inch of it. I paced around the island every afternoon, while they were resting. And yeah, it was a difficult time. Not only that, but I had no idea what my future was, as far as, when I’d be able to leave or would I be there for months? Would I be there for years? This was the time we had no vaccines. We had no idea how, how long this was going to be going on for. So nothing was available that gave me any sort of security.

It was an extremely difficult time, but again, understanding type, I got my needs met. I got involved with the type community who were fabulous as support people. I went walking on the island everyday and found a lovely lady who I’m still friendly with today. We used to go walking literally for hours at two o’clock every afternoon. So I could do everything that I needed to do at my parents’ place. And then I had this lovely person to go walking with for two hours every day. And we did, we just walked for miles and miles and miles. And so we were definitely therapy for each other.

So that was great, but I knew what was difficult. I knew what I needed to do to try and cope with it. Most certainly my experience wasn’t the worst experience in the covid scenario. We were all well and covid didn’t hit the island very badly at all. And so, we were fine. We were safe. So that was one of the things. One of my core needs was met, but challenging in many ways. Yeah. And even recently in 2021, just last year, my city Auckland was locked down for a hundred days. And again, sometimes you feel you’ve pivoted so much you’re pirouetting around the place.

But by then I was back at home. So that was a little bit easier. So I got to have more of my normal things around me. Yeah. But definitely I think covid pulled the strings on extroversion far more than perhaps the introverts. Again, my twin sister was gleeful.

Terri Connellan: Yes. We’re both introverts in our house and we’ve been quite happily ensconced.

Sue Blair: She was completely content. It was almost like her whole life had been validated. Stay in. Thank you! Work by yourself. Again, tick! So everything she needed was provided and everything I needed sort of wasn’t.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it must’ve been super challenging. So what would you say as some of the common misconceptions about extroversion and introversion?

Sue Blair: I think the key one is this idea that extroverts are always sociable and introverts are always shy. Obviously, we each need to have a little bit of our other preference. There are times when I certainly enjoy my sociability. I really enjoy connecting with other people. It’s something that I sort of like about myself, but I need time by myself. Yeah. I really do, but not as much. I think there is a time and energy component to both of those preferences.

Those with a preference for introversion again, then they’re not always shy. I know introverts who say to me that they don’t have a shy bone in their body. And I believe them. I really do, but they need an exit strategy for when things become a little bit overwhelming. And they can get overwhelmed by a social event, way more quickly than I can.

So I think for extroverts, we don’t need to conserve our energy in the same way that introverts do. We get our energy from being out and about. It is exhausting for somebody with a preference for extroversion to spend all day by themselves. In the same way that it is exhausting for somebody with a preference for introversion to be out connecting all day. You know, you need a break after that. We need a break after having time by ourselves. So that time and energy component I think is really, really important. And I think it is the most misunderstood thing about extroverts and introverts. You know, we are not all one and none of the other. We are a lovely company.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And you explained that beautifully in your recent LinkedIn post, which I’ll link to in the show notes about solar versus battery energy. That was a a beautiful analogy.

Sue Blair: Yeah. Extroverts are solar powered. We literally do just get our energy back from being out there in the world and that battery power, that resource, that inner resource that you go into, that introspection that you get your energy back from is very different. And understanding that, appreciating that with the people we live with, people we’re raising, people we work with, in all contexts.

Terri Connellan: Just as in the renewable energy, well, we need both of those aspects of energy. We need both those in our community, a great analogy. You have preferences for sensing also as opposed to intuiting. And this is probably one of the aspects of type that are perhaps harder to understand, I think, than some of the others. So can you explain these preferences, sensing and intuiting, for gathering information in different ways?

Sue Blair: Sure. I think if you have a sensing preference that your mind is far more converging than it is diverging. You think of an idea and you zero in on it. If you think about going into zoom and you’re looking on zoom and then you zoom in further and you zoom in further and you zoom in further and you go, aha. That’s where I need to go. The sensing brain does that naturally, whereas the intuiting brain is very much more divergent. It just has this natural outward curiosity to it.

So the sensing brain looks at the real, looks at the tangible, looks at what is, and, and really has a joy of that. And the intuitive brain looks at the possible, looks at the patterns looks at what could be. And I’m often talking to people about creativity because some people seem to think that those within intuiting preference have sort of got a monopoly on creativity and that isn’t the case at all.

Those were the sensing preference can really have a huge amount of creativity within them, but they use reality as a spring board to go to these different places. But let’s gather the information first and then we can just launch ourselves off, into all sorts of different spaces, but ground me first. And those with an intuitive preference, the imagination is the tool that they use by which they can craft their reality and know what to do next.

So it’s sort of going outwards, for those who have a sensing preference from base upwards and outwards. And it’s the opposite way for those, with an intuitive preference. You just see that sort of big picture and then you just wriggle around in your mind to get to, okay, so what does that mean right now? Diverge, converge.

Terri Connellan: Yes, I can certainly relate to that with my partner Keith who is ISTJ. So he has sensing preferences and I have intuiting and the times I notice that is when he’ll ask me a question and then I will tell him all these different things that relate to it. And he’ll say, no, I just asked this question. I just went through, but it’s yeah, it’s that meandering that to me is obvious, like, it’s that relates to that. Whereas he goes, no, I just want this fact.

Sue Blair: Yeah. And also I think the surprising thing for those of us who have a sensing preference is how many different interpretations you can make from one single sentence. You know, it’s just, I didn’t mean that, what I meant was. And that it can be misinterpreted so that you can get 10 different things out of one simple sentence.

Terri Connellan: So there’s probably a lot of argument for intuitives working with sensing coaches, isn’t there and the opposite way around?

Sue Blair: I think so. Yes. I think often about the sort of coach I would go to. There would be no point in me going to a coach who had my preferences. I’d probably enjoy it, we’d probably have a marvelous time. Why go to another ESTJ or ISTJ? I can ESTJ somebody out of the park. I need to have another perspective.

And perhaps that’s why a lot of people who have my opposite preferences, cause I think there’s some statistics around that the people with intuiting and feeling preferences and sensing and feeling preferences are the most likely people to require or to go towards having coaching. Maybe an ESTJ perspective can be really helpful as indeed I find intuiting preference is really helpful in coaching. Let’s go and talk to somebody that had just has a different view. Because I don’t want to hear the same thing again. I want to see what I’m missing. And though I can do it by myself, under stress, we do tend to exaggerate our natural preference and so we can kind of block out and have blind spots to some of those areas that aren’t as easily available to us. So yes, I would agree with you on that.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. Interesting point. You mentioned creativity. And one thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of creatives and writers that I work with, they’re often intuitive in preference, and when I talk about sensing and intuiting, they often find it hard to understand that they’re not sensing in preference because I guess perhaps as writers, they see themselves working with the five senses and noticing what’s around them. What would you say to that? It was just an interesting conundrum.

Sue Blair: Yes, I think it is. And I think when you’re looking at type, you have to really differentiate between what is being human and what is type? Where is the line there? And there are a lot of people who I speak to say, well, I, you know, I use sensing and I love going for walks in nature. And I love enjoying all of the beauty of the things around me. I say, yeah, but that’s being human. That’s not type. You know, when you have some information that you need, when you have got a problem to solve, where do you go to? And that’s where your type difference comes in. So I think there’s definitely that distinction to draw. What is human and what is psychological.

And I think if those with an intuiting preference didn’t use sensing, well they’d be bumping into things all the time? You’ve got all of your senses and you’re going to use them. Those with an intuiting preference absolutely do that. Those with a sensing preference still do have an imagination. We are very skilled with our imagination. We just use it at different times and in different ways.

Terri Connellan: So yeah, it’s about what your preference is, what you go to perhaps first or naturally.

Sue Blair: Yes, absolutely. Although, I was talking to a friend of mine who has INTP preferences and she says, I am so in my head that I do bump into things from time to time. She was just saying, I don’t just bump into something that is a surprisingly, there. She said I bump into my kitchen table, which hasn’t moved for years. I’ve just got myself inside my head thinking something through. And I literally don’t notice. I’m not aware of what’s going on, that does happen also.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I often say that to clients who are similar types to me, like that introverted, intuitive, dominant, I have to actually make myself leave this room because you know, I’ve got to have all my resources, my imagination, my whole world’s in this room and I actually have to lever myself to go out and go for a walk on the beach. And when I do, it’s the best thing in the world because I get that balance that I need.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. And I really think that knowing type, you can be intentional about using these other preferences. And I think that’s really important because you do need to recognize your blind spots and just go, what am I missing here? That’s an important conversation to have for everybody to know what your strengths are.

And sometimes your superpower is to understand your flaws and not be frightened of them. I can’t do that. Yeah. But that doesn’t worry me. I’m okay. I will either get some support in this area or I would kind of intentionally force my brain to just ask a few questions that I wouldn’t normally ask. Think outside the box. What am I missing here? Is there an elephant in the room? Is there something I haven’t noticed? And sort of direct your attention in a different way, which is a lot easier to do when you’re not stressed.

Terri Connellan: That’s for sure. Yeah. And I’d love your writing and insights on the inferior function, which is in part what we’re talking about here, that real opposite of our dominant preference. So can you explain a little bit about the inferior function and why people might choose to work with it as a form of self-awareness and growth?

Sue Blair: Yeah, actually it’s a good segue having had that conversation just now, really, because I think in my view, the inferior function would be better if we reframed it and retitled it. I think it isn’t actually inferior. I call it the balancing function. We all need to have a balance. Some of the images that I put across when I’m doing workshops is that I have the image of a horse that’s got out of control. You know, when your dominant function runs away with you, you literally can’t put brakes on it.

But neither are we going to trot perfectly round a dressage arena and get out sort of extended trots working smoothly. Life isn’t like that, you know, we’re not going to do things perfectly. So we are going to have to rumble with things and we will just maintain as much control as we possibly can. So I think that’s what the inferior function allows us to do. It just reigns us in from making some stupid mistakes from just letting the whole thing, get out of control. And try and engage with it rather than ignore it completely, which is going to send us off in the wrong direction.

So the presentation that I’ll be doing for BAPT is called Type in Tandem. And that’s really thinking about what is it like to ride a tandem bicycle? You know, you’ve got somebody on the front and you’ve got somebody at the back. If you think about that as your dominant/ inferior function. If the only person that’s working is the person who’s at the front, who’s got the steering wheel and is driving everything, but is not getting any power from the back, then it’s just hard work.

You need to have that person on the back. You need to have like this psychotherapist, that’s tapping you on the shoulder. That’s going, excuse me. Have you thought about this? Let me help you with. And that combination of types can be really great. So with my preferences, for example, and as ESTJ, my dominant function, extroverted thinking, it needs introverted feeling to say, is this important? Does this really matter? Is the energy that you’re putting into this activity worthy? Is it something that is going to produce good results? Not as it necessarily going to give you happiness? But it’s what you are doing going to make you happier than you were? Are you working towards something that’s meaningful and important to you.

And I do really find that in certainly in my later years, I’ve been able to tap into that. Similarly, as I’ve mentioned, my lovely sister has INFP preferences. She works the other way around. She actually is an artist, she does beautiful work. She does work that is meaningful to her and her values are strong. But if you just sit with strong values and do nothing with them, then that’s not a life well led either. So she needs to take those inner values and those inner core resources that she absolutely has in spades and just say, okay, so now what am I going to do with this? What am I going to put out to the world?

Because that doesn’t need to stay within me. I need to put something out into the world so that I have this legacy that I believe in and is strong within me. And you can use extraverted thinking to do that. You know, how am I going to organize my life so that the introverted feeling that is key for me has an external expression that is helpful to others

So the inferior function can just be incredible. It can be incredibly powerful and it can also be very, very difficult if you have no access to it whatsoever. We need to have those functions, whatever is your dominant and inferior function, they do need to be working in cahoots. They need to understand each other and tap in and say, hello? What advice can you give me on this one?

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love that article that you wrote for BAPT (Invoking the Inferior Function) a little while ago, and again, I’ll link to it in the show notes, on the inferior function. And for each function, you’ve got a lovely question just as you’ve shown us in those examples of, if you’re really strong on this function, how to bring in the opposites through just asking a question. Certainly for my type, that question was like, oh, you know, just takes you back, because it’s completely where you need to be focusing, but it’s not in your consciousness.

Sue Blair: Absolutely. And I think we can all, have even a list of questions available to us before we’re decision-making certainly. I mean, your dominant function is the one that I really fail to get. You know, that future thinking. Looking back in my past, I would take my life one term at a time when I had children one year at a time was the maximum I’d look out. To actually go to the top of the mountain and look any further was, is really difficult for me. And for anybody who’s saying, well, what’s your five or 10 year plan. It’s like, I have absolutely no idea, but it’s probably a good idea to look five and 10 years ahead.

What you’re doing now could be really relevant to what you might need to be doing in five or 10 years time, but it just simply doesn’t occur to me to go and do that. So I need to be dragged, kicking and screaming into your head, Terri, tell me a few things.

Terri Connellan: Must be great having a twin who’s your exact opposite in terms the types.

Sue Blair: Yes, it’s got better and better as we’ve got older. As you can imagine through our younger and teenage years, there was some tricky patches, but I think we’ve forgiven each other. I think she had to forgive me for a whole lot more than I had to forgive her to be honest, but we’ve absolutely worked it out. But I would highly recommend anybody who understands type and who knows their type preferences to find somebody who is their complete opposite and just build a connection so that you can just link in with each other and say, I’m thinking like this. Can you help me out with that?

Terri Connellan: That’s a great idea.

Sue Blair: Link up with someone who’s your opposite, so you’ll have to find an ESFP, Terri.

Terri Connellan: So the last couple of questions are questions that I ask each guest on the podcast because it’s the Create Your Story Podcast, interested in how you have created your story over your lifetime. It’s a big question, but interested to see what pops up.

Sue Blair: If I look back over my life, I can really see my type preferences being in action from the early years, as you can imagine. I think what understanding type has really given me as an adult is it has absolutely allowed me to make sure that I’m doing work that uses my strengths. And that there are some things that I can’t do. So if you’re waiting at a bus stop and several buses come along, there’s been several buses in my life that with my type knowledge, I’ve gone, that one’s not for me. I can do this, but this one I can’t. And then my bus comes along and I go now that one I can do. Yeah. That one’s for me. And to not be anxious or worried about it.

So I’ve found that increasingly helpful as I’ve gone through the years, being able to adjust and use the skills that I have in a way that I know is going to enable me to give my best to the world. We were saying earlier about my role in type is to take the complication out of things, make things simple and communicate it as clearly and concisely as I possibly can so that people get it first time. They’re not just struggling and having things ramble around in their minds, giving them something that’s concrete. And so I feel like I’m able to do that. Even with the Personality Puzzles. I had a prototype of the Personality Puzzles, when I first went on my certification program. So before I’d even been certified to use type, I realized that I needed a tool, a resource to help me talk to people about it so that they could understand it clearly. And I could get that, that information back.

So I think it that has definitely assisted me. And I think it will assist me still going forward. So creating my story, I think it also enables you to be happy with the story that you’ve got. I’m happy with the fact that there are some things that I can’t do. I really admire people who have different talents to me. I think it’s allowed me to not be so swift to step back and watch and enjoy people, having other talents, without feeling envious of them or wishing that I had them those sorts of feelings and, and just being a lot more comfortable in myself. It’s just helped enormously.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. What I’m hearing from you with that, that type has been such a huge part of your story as it’s evolved. And it sounds like it’s been a real tool for wisdom.

Sue Blair: I hope so. It definitely has given me other perspectives. One of the things that I really like when I’m writing, I’ve done as, you know, several resources and I write type descriptions, and they’re not easy to write, especially when you’ve only got an A five piece of card in which to put as much information as you possibly can about a particular type.

And my modus operandi for doing that was to literally sink myself into each of the 16 types while I was writing about INTJ or ESFP or whichever one, and it would be quite a task in any given morning that I knew I would be doing some writing, and I just go, which one do I want to be today?

And then just immersing myself in this ENTP brain of like, well, okay, let me be this for a day or two days and just thoroughly enjoying it, being able to glean so much from not only the other types of descriptions that you’re reading, but just to create something that is different and valuable that people are going to get in just by reading those type descriptions. It’s a very therapeutic way of doing it and an interesting dive into being someone else for a while. I guess actors do that a lot with their characters. I can’t claim to have any acting skills whatsoever, I imagine it’s a similar process that you cloak yourself in someone else for awhile, and then you can shed it. It’s fascinating. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it must’ve been amazing working through all 16 types. I’ve had a taste of it with doing workshops, with Dario Nardi with his priming, where you put yourself into exactly what it’s like. I worked particularly on INTP and just putting myself in the shoes and working with an INTP as a a partner in that exercise made me realize how different life is and how running so many processes in your mind as an INTP typically does all the time. It was incredibly cognitively busy.

Sue Blair: One of the sensing activities that I do in workshops is they literally have different colored acetates, blues greens, yellows, and I just get people to hold them up to their eyes and just say okay, looking through the red acetate looks like this. Now change to yellow or change to blue or change to green. And it’s as different as that.

People just see their world with totally different filters and unless you know about it, then you can’t be aware of it. But once you know about it, you will never not know it. And that’s the beauty of understanding type. You will never go through life, not knowing this information. And I think it is, It’s a gift really. It’s gold in people’s lives.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I think that’s why so many of us who work in type have chosen to do that. Just as you’ve explained, once you learn the value of it for yourself, but also working with others, it is really gold. And as you were talking there, it sounded like type was like a framework for choices, for discernment too, which I think is really powerful.

Sue Blair: Yeah, absolutely.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. So in Wholehearted, my book, I have 15 Wholehearted Self-leadership skills and practices for women. And to add to that body of knowledge, I’m interested in your top wholehearted self-leadership practices, especially for women.

Sue Blair: It’s an interesting one. Isn’t it? And I think one of the things over the years that I have come to really want to reframe in people’s minds is this imposter syndrome. People are talking about imposter syndrome a lot at the moment, and I’m not too sure that it’s helpful. I think that both men and women do get it, but I think women may have it more obviously, or more often. I haven’t got any research for that, but in my knowledge of, in the work that I’ve been doing. And I kind of like to reframe it because I think that it is absolutely necessary to have a reasonable and realistic doubt about some of the challenges that you might take on.

Now that doesn’t necessarily mean you have a syndrome, you are not an imposter. You just have some reasonable doubt and it certainly doesn’t mean that you’re not going to take on the challenge. So instead of saying, well, I’ve got imposter syndrome and I’m terribly worried about it and I might not do it. Why am I here? It’s like, okay, I’ve got some reasonable doubt, but I’m going to do it anyway. And I think that’s a far better way to look at it because we all have some doubts along the way.

And I remember going to a conference for careers advisors. And they said that the research there is that before women apply for a promotion or a new job, it is very likely, more likely than with men, for them to think, well, I haven’t got some of the things that this job description is requiring. So I won’t apply until I have consolidated and done an extra course or done another two years or built up my skills so that I can apply for the job. And men tend not to do that. They tend to tick 50% or 60% of the boxes. And say, I’ll just give it a go.

And I think we need to do that as women a bit more often, and to stop consolidating and thinking, yes, I need to do this, this, this, this, this, and this before I can do that, that, that, that, and just, yeah, it could be a challenge. You may have some reasonable and rational doubts, but do it anyway. I know that there is that book, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, but it’s experience the doubt that’s reasonable and rational and do it anyway.

Terri Connellan: That’s a great top tip. A coach that I trained with a little while ago, he stressed the importance of not waiting until you’re free of fear or free of doubt, but to move ahead with those, because he said, they’ll always be there with you. And if you wait until you’re free of doubt or fear, you’ll never move.

Sue Blair: And get support. I love the work of Brené Brown and she talks about vulnerability. And it’s okay to have that vulnerability it absolutely is. We need to shift this idea that we may have in our heads about leadership that means that we don’t need to be vulnerable. You know, we’re going to make mistakes and failure we learn from and grow from. We don’t want to make huge mistakes. but we don’t want the fear of it to stop us doing something. And so, saying to yourself, this is a reasonable and realistic doubt. Okay, let me just go ahead and just give it my best shot.

Terri Connellan: Mm. I love that. That’s a great thing to remember. So we’re just about at the end of our time together. So thanks so much for joining me today, Sue. It’s been great to learn more about you and to chat more about type and through all different aspects of how type can be such a powerful framework for us in guiding our lives.

So where can people find out more about you and your work online?

Sue Blair: Oh, thank you. So I’ve got a couple of websites, one of them for my resources, which is PersonalityPuzzles.com. And then for the coaching work and the presentation work that I do. It’s sueblair.co.nz. Or in fact, personalitydynamics.co.nz. Either one will get you there.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me today. It’s been wonderful.

Sue Blair: You’re very welcome, Terri. Thanks so much for having me.

About Sue Blair

Sue has been working with psychological type for 20 years. She is an international presenter and keynote speaker, as well as a qualified MBTI practitioner and adult educator. She is the author of The Personality Puzzle coaching cards, now used worldwide by coaches and counsellors. She has taught thousands of teachers, parents, students and businesses about the importance of self-awareness and communication. Sue is the recipient of the APTi 2015 Gordon Lawrence Award. This award recognises an outstanding achievement to the field of education

You can connect with Sue:

Website: SueBlair.co.nz or PersonalityPuzzles.co.nz

Personality Puzzles: https://www.personalitypuzzles.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-blair/

Terri’s links to explore:

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching & writing programs:

Work with me

The Writing Road Trip six month membership program – enrolling now for a 2 May start

The Writing Road Trip email list – community writing program with Beth Cregan

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

Marketing Tips for Introverts – with Marcia Yudkin

November 18, 2022

Marcia Yudkin shares insights on myths about introverts and marketing and tips for how to market in your own way as an introvert.

Welcome to Episode 21 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Marketing Tips for Introverts. I’m joined by Marcia Yudkin, author and specialist in the area of introverts and marketing, based on many years’ experience as a marketing coach and consultant.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

Myths about introverts
Ways of being bold as an introvert
Myths about introverts and marketing
Push vs pull marketing – and what works best for introverts
Authentic marketing for introverts
Content marketing and pull marketing – what’s the difference
Being clear in communicating who you are and how you work
Substack as an option for free and paid offerings and writing
Being inclusive of introverts in marketing
What we can learn from introverted characters in fiction and real life

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 21 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 18 November as I record this.

I’m excited to have Marcia Yudkin join us for the podcast today.

For more than 10 years, Marcia Yudkin has stood up and defended introverts as worthy of respect and understanding. This developed out of her work as a marketing coach and consultant. She’s the author of 17 books and too many ebooks, online courses and so on to count. Her current focus is a Substack newsletter called Introvert UpThink, which critiques society’s misunderstandings and disparagements of introverts. She lives in the woods of Western Massachusetts, where she walks or runs five miles every day in the company of chipmunks, beaver, deer, porcupines and occasionally bears.

I was so excited when Marcia and I connected to be able to explore more about the area of marketing for introverts and to share these insights with you. Bringing an incredibly rich background as marketing consultant, coach and author together with personal and professional experience on marketing as an introvert, it was fabulous to dive deep into this topic. We explore myths around both introversion and marketing as an introvert with so many tips for helping you to share more about you and your work with the world if you are an introvert.

I had so many personal aha moments in this conversation. There are many powerful examples that illustrate the tips provided. It is a fantastic reminder to be ourselves in how we market including as introverts and how this can be a successful path. Take some time too to learn about Marcia’s work and books and connect with her via her fabulous Substack newsletter, Introvert UpThink. Plus Marcia has many valuable books and resources on this topic as well. Links in the show notes as ever.

So let’s head into the interview with Marcia.

Transcript of interview with Marcia Yudkin

Terri Connellan: Hello Marcia, and welcome to the Create Your Story podcast. It’s so great to connect with you and to chat about introversion from many perspectives today, including marketing and media.

Marcia Yudkin: Hi Terri. Thanks for having me.

Terri Connellan: So to kick us off, Marcia, can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be, where you are today, and the work that you do?

Marcia Yudkin: Sure. As a kid, I was a bookworm. I loved words, and I was very much a classic introvert. My mother wished that I had more friends, and I found out recently that in this, she was just like, Ayn Rand’s mother who was always bugging her. Can’t you find some more friends? But I turned out fine.

In school. I studied philosophy in college, in graduate school. I taught philosophy for a while, quit academic life. I became a freelancer, because remember I said I had always loved words and so I thought, okay, writing is the next thing for me. And that morphed into becoming an expert in publicity and that developed into becoming an expert in marketing, which also used my love of words. And at some point I discovered that I’m an introvert. I think this was in the late two thousands, like 2008, something like that, and I started making more and more connections between things I saw in myself, things I saw in my clients, things I saw in my past, and reading that I was doing about what an introvert was.

And now I’m transitioning from marketing to concentrate on a newsletter that I started called Introvert UpThink, which looks at the prejudices against introverts in society and gives people resources for thinking positively about themselves as introverts.

Terri Connellan: Fabulous. And I love how your love of words is just woven through everything that you’ve talked about in different ways.

Marcia Yudkin: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Terri Connellan: It’s just fantastic. And, love the focus that you have through that weave of your life, bringing together that love of words, marketing and understanding about your own introversion and then helping others with theirs in areas of your strengths. So that’s really fabulous. So you’ve been working in that area now for more than 10 years in the area of marketing for introverts. Can you tell us a bit more about why you chose to focus there and how you help people?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, one thing I discovered when I was looking around and thinking about. What I was doing on a daily basis is I noticed that about 75% of my own clients were introverts, and I think that was because they saw in me a reflection of themselves and they wanted to work with somebody they could admire and who was like themselves and therefore was not going to push them to do things that did not come naturally to them.

So in addition to making those kind of observations, I also interviewed people who I saw as introverts, as successful introverts, especially in the marketing field and also in the writing field. And I wanted to find out, okay, what were their strategies for becoming successful as an introvert, not making a lot of compromises with their own personality.

Interestingly, some of these people weren’t themselves sure that they were introverts, even though I was sure that they were. And, I also analyzed things that I saw commonalities in my introverted clients. One of the things I noticed was that, Initially they were very set against marketing. There was something that didn’t sit right with them and I think it was because they were being told they had to do it in a way that didn’t fit their personality.

And then once I showed them that they could think about marketing in a different way, then it made a big transformation. In their ability to bring in clients. So that was gratifying, watching that happen with them. I’m not coaching clients anymore, but I’m still writing about things that I’ve learned, throughout my life and in working with clients.

Terri Connellan: Fabulous. And, it’s interesting what you say about introverts having a set against marketing and that idea of there’s a particular type of way that marketing should be done that might not be in line with introvert preferences.

Marcia Yudkin: I was noticing that, well, as a marketing expert myself, I wanted to see what my colleagues were saying, and a lot of them were saying really nonsensical things or things that would be downright harmful to introverts. Like, just get over yourself, don’t be such a wimp. Go out there and be aggressive and you didn’t have to do that, and we’ll get to that. What’s the alternative to that? But, I just noticed that there was so much in the marketing guru space that was only applicable to extraverts, really. And in order to follow that advice, you would have to be an extravert or skilled at pretending you were an extravert. And as you know, that’s really a strain and that’s a drain on energy.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. It’s like we have our natural preferences and when someone’s trying to push us into what is not natural. The natural reaction to that is to just move away from it, as you’ve said, to avoid or just to step away from that space altogether.

And I think as you’ve highlighted from what you’ve learned and what you’ve experienced for introverts often, and it’s part of why I called my business Quiet Writing, you have to find another way to share who you are and what you do that may go against the grain a bit or may involve new practices that will go through as we chat.

So, let’s talk about introverts and myths about introverts generally. So what are the most common myths that you see and how do they impact people with introverted preferences?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, I’ll just talk about two of the myths. There are a lot of them, but the first one is that introversion is a weakness, a personality weakness that you can get over, that you can overcome, and you can learn to be like all the extroverts and you can learn to get business the way that they get business.

And to some extent that’s true. You can, you can try those things, You can force yourself to do those things, but it’s exhausting. So my perspective is always to try to figure out a way to work with your natural preferences rather than against them. So introversion is not a weakness and it’s not something you can get over. If you were an introvert as a kid, you might learn to adapt in certain ways, but you’ll most likely still be an introvert when you’re grown up.

And the second myth is that introverts are timid and retiring. And from the way I look at it, we just have a different way of being bold. So, an amusing example of this is I have an extroverted friend. And, she does things that I would never do and I do things that she would never do and we surprise each other. So one of those surprises was, maybe 25 years ago, a big way that I kept my business going was by sending out postcards and they would be these hot pink postcards with announcements of my upcoming classes and special coaching programs.

And, my friend Shifra said to me, I could never send out postcards like that. I said, What do you mean? What do you mean you couldn’t send out postcards? She said, I don’t know. It’s so out there and to her that that was something that she couldn’t see herself doing, and to me was totally natural, totally easy and, you know, I wrote the postcards and I even put the stamps on them and everything. But for me to go up to strangers and start a conversation, that’s much more difficult. And for her, that was the most natural thing in the world. So, of course, If I were giving advice to her about how to market herself, I would set her up all these different ways she could have those conversations, and for me, that’s not what’s the best way.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And there are two really key myths about introversion, aren’t they that just pop up and are persistent. Even though we’ve had a lot of books and focus on introversion as a strength, I think it’s still something that we need to continually be working on personally and as a society. Introversion is not a personality weakness, as you said, you can overcome. It’s not something you can get over. And I loved your point too about the fact that you can force yourself to do things in a different way, but it’s the impact on people who are introverted, that it is exhausting. Cause again, you’re working against your natural preference, everything is harder.

Marcia Yudkin: Not only do we still hear this idea that introversion is a weakness, we sometimes hear it that it’s a mental illness. And, I’m researching this for an upcoming article about different ways in which people who should know better, identify certain aspects of being an introvert as being some kind of abnormal tendency and downright mental illness. But I still see this a lot when I read general interest things.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s out there on the public domain still. And, I loved your example too, of the different ways of being bold. That was great because, it’s true, there are things that might be again, quite natural for us that we do that don’t feel bold at all. But it’s interesting, there’s lots of ways introverts can be bold, be quite rebellious at times, be quite different. Exactly. Yeah. And, it’s just natural for us.

Marcia Yudkin: I’m very bold in writing, so I’ve had a lot of success writing letters to perfect strangers where I’m proposing something and I know how to use words to get attention. That’s one of my strengths. And I’ve said things that some other people wouldn’t say or that they wouldn’t know how to get attention.

So I’ve made a lot of connections with editors, especially earlier in my career when I was a freelance writer, I was able to contact these national magazines. And just in half a page, this was before email, just in half a page of a letter, get their attention and have them call me and say, Let’s talk. Come to New York and meet with me. I want you to write for us.

Terri Connellan: That’s a great strength and a great skill and my learning in this space is that it is taking the time to become more self-aware and educated. That’s why I use that term self leadership, like understanding yourself and what your strengths are so you can as you’ve shown through that beautiful example, deploy them effectively to meet your needs and to share what you have to share with the world.

So, we’ve talked about some of the myths around introverts generally. What specific myths do you see around introverts and marketing, and what’s their impact?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, we talked a bit about the idea that you need to be aggressive, that you need to get yourself out there. Another idea is that you need to interrupt people and pressure them. And introverts absolutely hate that. That’s like one of the things we most hate because we hate being pressured. We hate being interrupted. And what I tell introverts is that instead of being pushy, you use attraction. So you can pull people to you instead of pushing them toward you.

And there’s a whole genre of marketing that I call pull marketing, which is that you put things out there in the world and the right people, the people who you want to be attracted to you and who you want to work with, will find it and come to you. And that’s a very natural, very comfortable process for introverts. There’s nothing pushy whatsoever about it. It’s very authentic. It’s very natural, and it’s very effective.

Terri Connellan: And is that the same as content marketing?

Marcia Yudkin: I guess you could say content marketing. I like talking about it in terms of push and pull because I think that makes it very clear what the advantage is for introverts.

Terri Connellan: Mm. Yeah. I love that. I do. And it’s that idea of putting ideas, putting content, putting information, branding out there that will help people find you, be drawn to you, as you say. And it’s that natural attraction I guess that brings people to you and to the ideas that you share. And so what about discoverability in that space? Cause a lot of time, I think a lot of introverts can feel they’re putting information out there, but it doesn’t get read or it doesn’t get seen. So how could introverts be seen?

Marcia Yudkin: There’s some strategy there that you have to think through. So you have to think about first, who do you want to be speaking with, and you find out where they hang out, what do they read, what do they listen to, what do they watch? And you need to figure out how to get in front of the media that they’re already using. So, maybe that’s an online forum that your ideal clients exchange ideas on, and you can go there and depending on the rules of the forum. You find out, okay, what can I do to participate and become known, and then have those people want to find out more about me and so on.

Terri Connellan: Great. No, that’s really, an excellent idea because it’s probably easy for introverts to just think, I’ll put this information out and people will come and it’s not always the case. So, I think the sort of area that you’re working in to really articulate what we can do is just so powerful.

Marcia Yudkin: Let me say one more thing. The reason I hesitated about when you asked about content marketing is that there are other ways of attracting people that don’t have to do with creating content. So, for example, one of the people I worked with, was a Reiki practitioner, alternative medicine practitioner.

And she said she felt really alienated from marketing, from the whole idea of marketing because, to her, it had to do with communicating with these faceless masses of people that she couldn’t relate to at all. However, her strength was, she told me that when she got face to face with someone and was talking with them in a conversational way, that she was able to explain to them in a very persuasive, very compelling way what reiki was.

And what it could do for them in a natural conversation. So we decided that her marketing strategy would be to figure out ways in which she could have those conversations. So that’s not content marketing, but it still is pull marketing because you’re not being pushy. So she would, attend health expos for example. She would offer free sessions at places where people were already going. So she would make a deal with a yoga studio or a health club to offer free sessions there at a certain time and place. And that really, really helped her build her practice.

Terri Connellan: Mm, thank you. I really appreciate that distinction and additional comments about that idea between content marketing and pull marketing. I can see what you’re saying because, I think, content marketing perhaps can seem a little bit passive. And I guess what you are describing there too is that actively identifying how you might do things, including in a face to face way. So it’s not necessarily all putting content out there, it might be putting yourself out there in a different way.

Marcia Yudkin: Right. And I’ll give you an example of how this stuff works. So, years ago I gave a class on writing websites basically. And I had 12 people in the class and my idea was that everybody in the class would use what they were learning to create their own websites. But what happened was that, and this was totally not my intention, some of the people in the class realized that this wasn’t something that they wanted to do themselves. And they took what they were learning from me to ask me to do it for them, and that was a very natural outcome of something that I was already doing.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That’s a really great example and it’s often working through areas that you’re working on and finding the best way for you. A lot of, it’s about finding a fit for a personality, cause there’s introverts, but there’s different types of introverts as well. So everybody needs to find, what works for them.

So what insights, practices and tools can help introverts with marketing themselves, their work and their business in the world?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, the first thing I would say is that You need to realize that you’re fine the way you are. And, 1 sentence I came across not too long ago was, No one wants to do business with a wallflower. You see how insulting that is to introverts, but also it’s just not true. Because what I saw again and again was that everybody’s not the same. So everybody doesn’t want to do business with dynamic, talkative, chatty people. There are many people who prefer to work with us quieter, less flashy, less pushy people.

And, so for example, in one of my surveys, I asked the introverts in the survey, if they found out that there was a local financial planner who was nationally famous, would they want to work with that person because they were nationally famous?

And one guy said, it was very surprising, he said, No, I definitely would not, because first of all, I would think that they would be too busy to give me any attention. And secondly, I don’t want somebody who’s spending half their energy trying to be famous and deal with that. I want somebody who’s just going to be doing client service.

And this goes against a lot of the advice that marketing experts are giving to people. You know, you have to build this big reputation. Well, not everybody wants to work with somebody who has a big reputation and somebody who’s just a local person and very good at what they do and has good referrals may be just perfect for a lot of people. That’s the kind of practitioner that some people want to work with, they actually prefer. So you don’t have to brag about yourself. You don’t have to boast, you don’t have to pretend. You can just be your best self and be how you like to work and use your strengths.

So the second thing I would say is, Figure out what you most enjoy doing and where you’re at your best vis a vis potential clients, and then engineer that. So if your best communicating by email, then you want clients who are comfortable that way and not everybody is. I’ve had a couple of clients who don’t want to settle anything by email. They want to settle everything by a phone call. And that’s stressful for me, honestly. I mean, I’ll put up with it to a certain extent if I really, really like the client and it’s the kind of work that I enjoy doing. But it’s a pain in the neck to me. And, it’s not the way that I prefer to work with people.

So figure out what works best for you. And there’s nothing wrong with telling people that you do most of your work by email, not over the phone. And that way you get the people who want to be working with you and you get the people who you want to be working with them in that way.

Terri Connellan: Great. I love that. It’s interesting as you described that because phone calls are not a preferred way of working too. So everyone has their preferred modes of communicating and their preferred ways of working, but I love that you stress that it really helps to be upfront about that and communicate that because as you say, people can often think that it’s not okay to say I use this preferred way of communicating where for somebody else that’ll make their heart sing.

I had to laugh a little while ago cause I was talking with someone about the phone and he said, Oh, I only use my phone for phone calls. I said, goodness. I use my phone for just about everything but phone calls. It was just hilarious. Both introverts interestingly, but it’s just interesting how we do have such preferences, personality driven or otherwise for how we want to be communicating.

So that’s a great point. And I also really appreciated your point about, you know, just being who we are. And as you were talking, I was thinking of Paul Jarvis’s book. I don’t know if you’ve heard of his book, Company of One. And it, he talks there about how he actually loves just being a company of one person and he doesn’t want to scale up. The way he wants to work is have a small team around him. He doesn’t want too many people. He doesn’t want to go big and his business and his marketing is driven by just keeping it small. So I think that’s really refreshing too.

Marcia Yudkin: And the thing to remember is however you like to work, there are people out there who also like to work that. So tell them. So for example, if somebody’s thinking of me as a writing coach, I need them to know that I’m candid, that I’m frank, that I’m not a touchy-feely kind of writing coach who’s going to always say, Oh yes, it’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. That’s not the way I handle things. If that’s what they want, they should go to somebody else. And so it’s really important to know yourself and to communicate those things so that you get the kind of clients that you enjoy working with.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And are there any particular practices and tools that you encourage introverts to explore, to help with marketing themselves?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, as I said, I always start by asking, what is it that you do best? So I’m always surprised at the variety of answers that I get. So there was one woman I was coaching to be a marketing consultant, and I never met her face to face. We just talked on the phone. I never saw a picture of her. So my sense of her was just how we related over the phone and by email and my impression of her was that she was kind of mousey and quiet and retiring and I worried a little bit about how she would find her place as a marketer.

But one of the things I recommended to her was that because she was looking for local clients, I said, Why don’t you go try BNI? And if you’ve heard of BNI it’s a certain kind of local networking arrangement. They have chapters all over the world, so I don’t, I’m sure they have it in Australia as well, but, It involves a weekly face to face breakfast meeting with about 20 people.

So it turns out she was really good in that situation because she was able to relate to people one on one and have conversations about what they did and what she did. And she was able to explain what she did in a way that was not intimidating to her. And she got her calendar all filled up to start with from this networking group and it helped that the structure, BNI has a certain structure that facilitates those kind of one-on-one conversations within the group. And they encourage referrals within the group, but she was off and running much faster than I would’ve imagined, and it was great. I was so happy for her.

Terri Connellan: That’s great. I love that example because to me again, that can be a real introvert strength. That ability to have really focused one-on-one conversations and to find an organization that provides that sort of structure to enable that to happen, that’s a really fantastic way of looking at marketing yourself and putting yourself out there. Again, the stereotypical idea is you must talk to a room full of people and for many, that’s not the best way to reach people.

Marcia Yudkin: No it’s not. And when I lived in Boston, it’s a big city as big cities go in the United States. And I did a lot of networking when I was building up my business, but, I approached it in a certain way. My idea was that if I go to a meeting and I have one really, really good conversation with a potential client, I’m happy. It’s not a matter of collecting business cards. It’s not a quantity thing, it’s a quality thing. So I remember one time there must have been 200 people in the room and I somehow got talking with a certain woman and we really clicked and she became a client for 20 years.

Terri Connellan: That’s fabulous. And again, it’s just tapping into, strengths anyone can have. But I think particularly, for some introverted types, that ability to really have, focused meaningful one-on-one conversations is a real strength and something that we can be really good at and we can tap into and use that as a way of weaving into our practices. So we’ve got ways of connecting with people. So that’s a great example. Thank you. As someone with INTJ preferences for introversion, intuition, thinking and judging as I also have, what works for you in marketing, Marcia?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, some years ago I did a report called Marketing in Tune with Your Personality, and I interviewed one person from each of the eight introvert personalities in the Myers Briggs system and asked them how did they succeed in their marketing and what did they like and what did they hate? And then I wrote it all up. And so I went back and looked at what the INTJ person in the report said.

And he said what worked best for him was a free initial consultation, which unlike many other people, he did as an actual consultation. So instead, it was not a sales thing. It was really giving the other person advice, and here’s a quote from him. He said, ‘the one-on-one client first session does not feel to me like selling. It feels more like giving them a valuable gift and enjoying the transformational process of seeing them really get what I’m all about.’

Mm. So that was him and for me, I actually don’t do free initial consultations. I’ve never done them. Someone wants to work with me, I always made it, okay, you can read all about me on my. You want to work together, let’s get started and get started with a real paid consultation. And that worked for me.

But in terms of marketing, what was my secret weapon. My not so secret weapon was for more than 20 years, I did a free weekly marketing newsletter. It was called The Marketing Minute. And at its highest point, it had, maybe 15,000 subscribers. I don’t know if that sounds like a lot or not, but it was like a money machine because every week I would have literally something that took a minute to say out loud, 180 words. And then I would have a special offer. So anybody who was reading the tip of the week or the example of the week or whatever it was, then their eye would naturally go to the special offer. And some of them worked, some of them didn’t work, and some of the ones that worked, worked really, really well.

So it was like, My marketing minute went out and a couple hours later I would look at my inbox, how many orders did I get, how many inquiries for consultations and so on. So that was my secret weapon, and it was something I really, really enjoyed doing. So, the only thing that got me to stop doing it was when I decided on my new newsletter, Introvert Up Think, and only then was I able to close down the other, the Marketing Minute newsletter.

Terri Connellan: Mm. And you’re using Substack for that, aren’t you? Which, um, Yes, I am. Is becoming quite popular, isn’t it, as a way of reaching people?

Marcia Yudkin: I like the platform actually, because almost everything that I wanted to do, it has an easy way of doing it. So they’ve created the infrastructure. And, I’ve read a couple things by the founder of the company and I like his whole philosophy as well. So he’s trying to create a culture of readers, and a culture of writers writing for readers, and the whole ethos of the company seems to be around quality writing. It’s not so much sell, sell, sell kind of marketing writing. I mean, maybe there’s some people who using sub stack to do that, but, the way the company talks to its customer base and the way it sets things up, it really is set up to make it easy for writers to communicate with an audience.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I’ve been looking at it too. I think it’s really interesting. And for those who might not be familiar, and correct me if I’m wrong, Marcia, but my understanding is that, Sub Stack works as a free platform where you can create content and it looks really beautiful. It looks a bit reminiscent of blogging in some ways, like a combination of blogging and newsletters, but then people have the opportunity to pay for additional content. So, yeah, so I think that’s a really beautiful, easy way, isn’t it, to bring people to services.

Marcia Yudkin: You can also import a list from some other platform without any problems. That was a big thing for me because I had so many subscribers from My Marketing Minute, not all of whom chose to go to the introvert newsletter, cause not all of them are interested in those issues. But anyway, I was able to import those people who wanted to join the introvert newsletter. That was easy. It has a free platform with no problem whatsoever. So maybe you’ll never charge anything for anything, for any of your content.

And if so, Substack is happy to have you as a customer. They’ll never make money from you. That’s okay. But they also make it easy to start charging for extra content from your subscribers, and they tell you what they think the the going rate is. People in these subject areas can charge more and if you’re not, don’t go there and so on. So if you set up an option for paid subscribers, then Substack will take 10%.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, which is great. So there’s not huge upfront costs, which I think is a really great model in this day and age where there’s a lot of costs isn’t there, and running a business. So it’s excellent. And encourage people to have a look at Introvert Upthink. We’ll put the link in the show notes cause it’s a great platform and great ideas there. So if people are aiming to market to introverts or be inclusive of introverts in their marketing, what might they think about in their marketing approaches?

Marcia Yudkin: Two things. The first thing is don’t force them into your paradigm. So if you have a certain paradigm that you think is the bees knees, it may not be right for introverts. Don’t try to cram everybody into it. So for example, I had a job coach who approached me and her number one question was, how could she get her introverted clients to do informational interviewing.

She thought that there’s no way that you can get a job in this day and age without doing informational interviewing. So in case somebody doesn’t know what that is, it’s where. You find somebody who’s in the job or in the industry that you want to get a job in, and you call them up and ask them, basically to mentor you for the space of a lunch or a breakfast.

And so you can ask them questions and so on. And it’s an unpaid thing and you’re basically asking them to do this huge favor. And I told her, forget it, . This is not something that introverts are ever going to be comfortable doing or be good at doing.

And in fact, if somebody asked me to do an informational interview, I don’t know if I would even agree to it, and I certainly would not agree to do it if I were looking for a job because I don’t like asking favors of people. Hmm. It’s just something that’s unpleasant to me. And because if I wouldn’t do that favor for somebody else, why should I expect somebody else to do that favor for me? And so she wasn’t happy with this. She wanted me to tell her how to convince introverts to fit into her system and that wasn’t going to work.

And the second tip is to respect their privacy. A lot of introverts are really conscious about and protective of their privacy. So here’s an example of something that that is respecting privacy. So I signed up for a writing class and they have an online forum where the people in the class can interact and ask questions and so on. And it’s set up so that all the students in the class appear when they post something with their first name and their last initial. I’m really comfortable with that, and it made me happy that I wasn’t outed to all the other people in the class by my full name unless I chose to do that.

And so that’s the kind of thing that an introvert may be very attentive too. And, I’ve had introverted clients who wanted to give me a testimonial, for example, but they were very unsure about the idea of having their city and state put at the end of the testimonial, which is customary that a lot of people do it that way. And so I said, Fine. You know, we don’t have to do it that way if, if you’re not comfortable with that.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are two great tips, particularly the idea of not forcing, trying to get introverts to do something that might be good for them is almost what it sounds like from what you’re describing. And, it’s just finding that shoe that fits for the right way of doing things, both in terms of privacy and in terms of paradigm. So thank you for that. I was really interested to see that you run an introvert book club, which highlights the work of introvert creators and introverted characters, which is a great idea. So what can we learn from introverted characters, whether it’s in fiction or real life?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, this introvert book club is part of my Introvert Up Think newsletter. So once a month I have a post that is, focused on the book of the month, and that’s for my paid subscribers. So that’s my added value that I’m giving to the people who pay for the newsletter. So I’m going back through a lot of classics, the kinds of books that we may have read in high school or in college. And I’m going back to them to see what we can pull out of them or learn from them specifically about introverts. And it’s just been so interesting to me.

So for example, I did The Great Gatsby and my theme for the Great Gatsby was the mystique that introverts can have when they’re sort of distant and unattainable and on a pedestal and not very communicative. So I went through the novel and found all the places that highlighted the mystique that Gatsby had, and why is it that we think of him in terms of glamor. The novel takes place during prohibition, during the jazz age and he had these parties at his mansion on Long Island Sound. And, yet he didn’t really attend his own parties. Like a typical introvert. So you can look at characters in fiction and people in real life that we’ve heard about as famous names and try and see what are some introvert themes you can pull out?

So, for example, I did a thing on Thomas Edison. We think of him as the in inventor of the light bulb and this solitary genius. And, one interesting thing about him is that he actually built the world’s first research and development laboratory. He was not solitary at all. He set a world record for the most patents, but he had dozens if not hundreds of scientists and technologists and chemists and so on, working for him on all his little projects.

He was the brain behind it. He was not solitary at all. And the other interesting thing about Edison is that he lost most of his hearing when he was in his teens and as an adult, he said that that was an advantage because if he was having lunch with people, he wouldn’t have to listen to all their small talk because he literally couldn’t hear it. And so he could just be thinking in his own mind about his invention projects while everybody is blabbing around him. Somebody approached him once and said, You know, I’m working on some device that can help people who are hard of hearing to hear better. He didn’t want to have anything to do with it. He was happy being in his own world and it’s only an introvert that would respond that way.

Terri Connellan: So that just sounds amazing. And from that I see you’re also writing a book on what we can learn from famous and fictional introverts. So tell us a bit more about this book, how it’s going, and why you felt called to write it.

Marcia Yudkin: Well, I’m not actually writing the book per se. In doing the newsletter, I’m preparing to write the book and I’m also building an audience so that I can get a book contract.

So I’ve had book contracts from big publishers in the past. I’ve been sort of out of that for a while. And in order to get back in their good graces, I have to show them that I have people who are interested in this topic and who are following me and so on. So I have a number of subscribers that I want to reach, and once I reach that number, then I’m going to approach the publishers and I’ll have been working on the topic from all these different angles in my newsletter. And I’ll be able to put together a much better book proposal than I could if I just sat down now.

Terri Connellan: That’s really exciting and I love the way that that whole piece as you just described it, writing the book, connecting with an audience, and also preparing to pitch to publishers. So that’s fantastic and really exciting and interesting as well.

I saw you also had a session on, or a piece on Emily Dickinson, who I always find really fascinating as an introverted writer. So yes. Yeah. Fantastic. So I think people will find that really interesting. So again, we’ll link to The Introvert Up Think, and you’ll be able to find information if you’re listening and interested in that newsletter.

So, the last couple of questions, Marcia, are questions I ask every guest on the podcast. So the first one is how have you created your story over your lifetime?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, I thought about this and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. But what I can tell you is that I spent the year 2021 writing a memoir, and the theme of the memoir is Success Without Ambition.

And in my life, I talk about in, in the book, ways in which ambition led me astray and that I’m better off having come beyond that. So it’s a very philosophical book and very introspective book. It’s very much an introvert’s kind of book and I spent a year writing it. One of the things I had to do was reread all my old journals in order to get back into how I used to be and so on. And so since I finished writing it, I’m letting it sit. I need to get perspective on it and I need to get feedback on it before I go back and do the next draft. So I’m not quite ready to get back to it. But I will be, and I don’t know if that book will come before or after the introvert book. We’ll see.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. But I love that focus in your memoir around ambition and how that fits with success. I think that’s a really interesting perspective and example of, different ways we can create our story and look at the themes that thread through it. So that sounds a really fascinating project. Look forward to reading more. So the other question I ask guests is about wholehearted self leadership, related to my book, which has some tips on wholehearted self leadership and practices for women. So what would be your top self leadership tips that you would share with people?

Marcia Yudkin: Well, if you remember, when I saw that question, I asked you, Well, what is self leadership? And you gave me a nice answer and I didn’t quite understand it. And I went looking for more articles, more content about it. And there was something that was not clicking with me. And finally I realized that the reason I was having trouble with the words. That specific phrase is that to me it was a little redundant. And in my experience, probably I’ve always had self leadership and so therefore I never had to think about it.

So if I look back, even as a kid, whatever I was interested in, I went and did it. And when I was in college, again, there were things that attracted me, I pursued them.

So one of the things I did when I was in college, I went to Brown University, which is part of the Ivy League here in the United States. But what’s specific about Brown is that they have an option where you can go through all four years if you like, without having any grades from your professors.

Instead they write evaluations of you. And I really, really liked that idea. It’s a small enough school that you can get to know your professors, so it’s meaningful as well. But everybody told me, you’ll never get into graduate school if you don’t have grades.

I said, Okay, that’s fine, . And, when I went to apply to graduate school, I got into every graduate school that I applied to, so they were wrong. And I, attention to myself. Is that what you’re talking about?

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I think it’s that idea of self-awareness is one is one part of it. Like understanding yourself, an introvert, for example, as we’ve talked about through this conversation. And it’s that self mastery and that ability to make choices. But yeah, I think what I’m hearing from you is that self leadership’s been a really strong theme, or that self mastery, self belief has been really strong in you right from the start.

Marcia Yudkin: And so my tip for that is to listen to yourself. And this doesn’t come naturally to everybody. So when I was mentoring people who were learning to become a copywriter, what would happen again and again, and I noticed it and I learned from it. What would happen again and again was that we would have a conference about what they were learning.

And I would point out, you know, you really had to do such and such here. And the student would say, You know, I thought about that. And I would say, And… so over the course of this 10 week program, when I mentored them, they would have practice in listening to and respecting their ideas that they had just gone flitting through their mind.

And this was a huge step in making them confident and skilled in what I was teaching them. And I think anybody can learn to do that. It’s just a matter of attention and confidence and, you know, maybe a mentor.

Terri Connellan: Mm. And it’s that discernment in there too of knowing when to trust that voice and knowing when another thing like fear is talking, like that sort of. It’s hard to describe, but it’s a developing practice about wise listening, isn’t it?

Marcia Yudkin: Yes. And in this particular program, we were talking about ideas. So it wasn’t the fear so much that I was asking them to pay attention to, or that we were talking about. It was the ideas that, you know, had gone flitting through their mind, but they hadn’t taken seriously.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I think that’s great advice that learning to listen to yourself, which I think is a lifetime practice, isn’t it?

Marcia Yudkin: Yes.

Terri Connellan: So thanks so much, Marcia, for your time today. It’s been really fascinating to hear more about you, about your work, particularly in the introversion space and the marketing space and how they come together, and also about your own writing and creativity, which is always fascinating. So where can people find out more about you and your work online?

Marcia Yudkin: They can go to introvertupthink.com spelled the obvious way. And, if you’re specifically interested in marketing for introverts or marketing to introverts, I have ebooks on those topics on Amazon and they’re just 2 99 each US dollars. I don’t know what they are, Australian or Euros or whatever, but, you know, just little things to get you thinking and get you started in this area.

Terri Connellan: Fabulous. That’s great. And we’ll put the link to Introvert Up Think and I can put the link to books too, if you like, in the show notes. That would be great to share with people.. Thanks so much Marcia.

Marcia Yudkin: Thank you very much for having me.

About Marcia Yudkin

For more than 10 years, Marcia Yudkin has stood up and defended introverts as worthy of respect and understanding. This developed out of her work as a marketing coach and consultant. She’s the author of 17 books and too many ebooks, online courses and so on to count. Her current focus is a Substack newsletter called Introvert Upthink, which critiques society’s misunderstandings and disparagements of introverts. She lives in the woods of Western Massachusetts, where she walks or runs five miles every day in the company of chipmunks, beaver, deer, porcupines and occasionally bears.

Introvert Upthink: https://www.introvertupthink.com

Twitter: http://twitter.com/marciasmantras

Marketing in Tune With Your Personality: A Guide for Introverts: https://www.yudkin.com/intune.htm

Marketing for Introverts: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005ETBK9C

Marketing to Introverts: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DZYGYYH/

Terri’s links to explore

Books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition: https://www.quietwriting.com/wholehearted-book/ & quick links to buy: books2read.com/wholehearted

Wholehearted Companion Workbook: https://www.quietwriting.com/wholehearted-companion-workbook/ & quick links to buy: books2read.com/b/companion

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition: quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Personal Action Checklist for Creating More Meaning + Purpose: https://www.quietwriting.net/checklist

Coaching and writing programs:

Work with me: quietwriting.com/work-with-me/

The Writing Road Trip with Beth Cregan: quietwriting.net/writingroadtrip

Connect on social media

Instagram: instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

personality and story podcast self-leadership + leadership

Personality Type Coaching and Social Media with Joe Arrigo

February 11, 2022

Helping people find their place in the world through personality type clarity.

Welcome to Episode 12 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Personality Type Coaching and Social Media.

I’m joined by Joe Arrigo, Personality Type Coach, INTJ and LinkedIn and YouTube aficionado.

We chat about Joe’s journey to psychological type and type coaching and how he shares and connects with people on social media around personality.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

Joe’s journey to being a type coach
Learning type as a language
The magic of understanding your type
Personal growth as an INTJ
The power of focusing on our weaknesses
Social media and type
Being extraverted via social media as an introvert
Tips for LinkedIn
Being visible on social media

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 12 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 11 of February as I record this. I’ve been enjoying two weeks of The Writing Road Trip Free Challenge inspiring and chatting with writers over the past two weeks with my writing partner, Beth Cregan and launching The Writing Road Map short course which starts on 28 February. More on that in a moment.

I’m excited to have Joe Arrigo join us for the podcast today to chat about Personality Type Coaching and Social Media and it’s a fabulously fun and deep conversation all at the same time with two INTJs, type coaches and social media lovers chatting.

Joe Arrigo is a newbie to the professional Type space. What started as a mild interest exploded into an obsession and a coaching business. His goal is to help people find their place in the world by bringing clarity to their personality type. Joe believes that the most important aspect to self-improvement is first knowing yourself. Everything else branches out from there. If a stubborn INTJ like Joe can have a transformation due to Typology, it can certainly do the same for others. He resides primarily on Linkedin and YouTube, and tries to bridge the gap between the Old Guard and New Guard of type.

Joe and I met on LinkedIn through our love for social media and via our mutual interest in personality and psychological type, particularly through the Australian Association for Psychological Type. (AusAPT). I’ve had the pleasure of attending Joe’s session at the AusAPT 2021 Conference on being a new type coach and learnt more about his journey in psychological type and personality. But there’s so much more I didn’t know about Joe and there was so much more to explore.

Today we will be speaking about Joe’s work in personality type and coaching, the magic of understanding type as a lens and language in life, being an INTJ and understanding your type, the power of focusing on your weaknesses, social media especially LinkedIn, social media and introverts, and how to be more visible on social media.

Before we head to the conversation with Joe, I want to let you know that The Writing Road Map is now open for enrolment. My friend, writing partner and brilliant writing teacher, Beth Cregan and I are your guides for this course which kicks off on Monday 28 February. This is a 6 week intensive to plan your writing project from beginning to end and map the supports and tools that will make it happen. It’s about planning your writing journey now and getting clear on your writing project direction, terrain, scope and path, instead of wasting time on dead ends and by-roads and procrastinating. Plus you’ll enjoy community support, accountability and guidance along the way to inspire you and keep you going.

What you’ll get:

6 x 90 minute weekly Masterclasses (60 min workshop + 30 mins Q&A)
1 x 2 hour virtual writing retreat
Guidance, skills & inspiration from 2 experienced writing teachers and authors
Weekly accountability prompts and follow-up
Community support & connection including via live calls and our private Facebook Group.

Plus a second bonus 2 hour virtual writing retreat with Beth and I if you sign up by midnight Monday 14 February AEDT Sydney time. So don’t delay!

So, if writing is a priority for you in 2022 – whether it’s writing a book, blog posts, a course, family history, anything at all, join us. Head to quietwriting.net/writing-road-map

An easy way to find them is to head to quietwriting.com/podcast and click on Episode 12 for the transcript of this intro and the podcast!.

Now let’s head into the interview with the fabulous Joe Arrigo.

Transcript of interview with Joe Arrigo

Terri Connellan: Hi Joe, welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.

Joe Arrigo: Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I just want to say upfront that I invited myself onto the show. I saw your posts on LinkedIn and I didn’t even know you had this thing going. So I was like, I absolutely need to be here. So thank you for letting me be here.

Terri Connellan: I’m so honored. That was great to receive your thought that you’d love to be on the show. I’m really excited to chat with you today. So we’ve connected around the personality, psychological type, via social media, and also through the Australian Association for Psychological Type where you joined us as a speaker at our recent conference, which was really exciting.

Plus we’re both INTJs so that’s really exciting to chat about how we see the world with similar preferences. So can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work you do now.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. So what I usually say is that I was in film school and that I did what every film graduate does is after they go into sales because the film doesn’t work. And, so I did sales and I was like, a sales development rep and I was doing cold calls and things like that. And I was a recruiter and then COVID hit and I got furloughed and then, I was just like, maybe this MBTI obsession that I have, I should try to do something with, while I have the perfect amount of time in life to do this. I probably would never get another time in life where I get to have like commission checks still coming in, but like, they’re paying me to not be there. Maybe I can try to get this business going.

And that’s kind of the quick story of the furlough allowed me the time to start doing MBTI work. And, I always say that it’s sort of a synchronistic Carl Jungian type, like the door opened and it was a signal and it was like fate and I just said, okay, I’m going to do this thing. So that’s the very short story. I thought I was going to do a lot of corporate workshops, but I really found passion one-on-one coaching. I think it’s the more intimate, the more you get to know people more that you can really apply type. I just thought that the corporate way would be better, but it’s not as good as doing one-on-one coach.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love one-on-one coaching too. And I think that’s that ability to really engage with individuals about their story that I love.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. It’s interesting. There’s a lot of like every story is unique and I believe that for the most part, but I think that every one is a puzzle. Not to solve. I don’t want to say to solve, but there’s a unique aspect about them that I think the INTJ is really well suited for. Like helping find that missing piece or something.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That’s a great way to think of it. I hadn’t thought of it as a skill for an INTJ coach to help solve the puzzle of the person. I guess that’s what I do, but you’ve said that beautifully. So thank you. That’s a great insight. So just to chat further about that, personality and psychological type of key frameworks that you employ in your work. Why did you choose to specialize there and how does type help people be more whole and self-aware?

Joe Arrigo: Well, I think type is universal. It’s always applied to people since we crawled out of the ocean type has always been something that applies and doesn’t matter what time period you’re living in. It doesn’t matter what age you grew up in, type can apply. You probably agree. We like the universal things, like personality type has always evolved, but like the core of the people stay the same, but it’s always evolving slowly over time.

So it really appealed to the authenticity, my Introverted Feeling, which was, I want to do something that is real work. And I was kind of doing jobs that were selling other people’s products or stuff that people didn’t need. So that really felt inauthentic to me. I also want it to be productive. It’s funny, I say this because I’m really good at LinkedIn, but there’s a lot of people that have made a career on being a LinkedIn coach or being a LinkedIn influencer, which is to me like the last stage of just like, it’s so meta for a job, but it doesn’t really help people. Personality type and psychology is always about helping people, so I think that’s what I gravitated towards.

And to answer your question about how to help them become more self-aware I think it’s that universal shared language that Jung created. Learning type is a new language. You are learning a new language. That is the hardest part. That’s where most people get stuck. But once you learn the language, you can articulate yourself to yourself or to other people in a way that previously you were like, I’m the only one that thinks this way. There’s no one else has ever had these thoughts before. And now you’re like, wow, this is what that’s called.

I think Ni [Introverted Intuition] for me was like, oh, that is the thing that I do. But before Jung, I don’t know if people knew what that was called, that shamanistic quality, I guess. I like to say that it’s when it’s that point in life, where you go from standard definition to 4K definition where you’re like, wow, I didn’t know what I wasn’t seeing.

It’s like when you put on glasses for the first time, you’re like, how did I live my life like blind before? How did I even function? And so that’s what I got out of it. And, I think it applies to most people.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love that. And I often say to people, working with personality type and understanding your type is like having an operator’s manual for your personality. So similar to what you’re saying, it’s that ability to have both the language and the framework. I often talk about frameworks to be able to make sense of…And you mentioned Ni which is that Introverted Intuition that we both share as a dominant function and certainly for me, and I know working with others, understanding what that Introverted Intuition for example is about and what it’s like and why I do what I do was just like magic. Wasn’t it?

Joe Arrigo: It is. I think all the functions have their own magic to them. I don’t know if you feel this way, but I think Introverted Thinking types are interesting to me because their capacity for deep diving into a subject or understanding that true essence of a thing is like unparalleled. But all the functions have their magic to it. I think in the community, there’s a rush to talk about Ni as if it’s like, the only one, the best one, that’s probably just like more NT types being in the community so they pump themselves up about it. But all of them are special, I think.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Just for those who are listening who don’t perhaps know about the types. There are 16 types, which you might’ve seen, the Jung/ Myers-Briggs types and we’re talking about INTJ, which we share. But as Joe has mentioned, all 16 types, all of the cognitive functions have their strengths, have their values and have their unique way of working.

And, there’s eight cognitive functions or cognitive processes, which came from Jung’s psychological type work. So, I’ll put some links in there for people who maybe want to know a little bit about that. So, I love that idea of that universal shared language. And where I really experienced that is at a type conference. And it’s the same on the internet, people who understand type, it’s just an ability to make connection as with any community where you have a shared language and shared understanding. But I think the real value for me is that it’s about personal development, personality development, understanding yourself and understanding others.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. And I’m writing something now. I don’t know where it’s going, but I’m writing something now about that’s why I value the one-on-one coaching is because it’s first about understanding yourself. And then only then can you do anything about your interpersonal relationships. So I think like presenting type to a bunch of newbies at a workshop has some utility, but you can’t get that nuanced approach that you can with a one-on-one. So I think that would be the way to go if anyone’s like here’s this podcast and wants to move forward. I would say like getting involved with a coach one-on-one is probably the best path for development, rather than a workshop or something.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I totally agree. I think the value of doing that deep inner work. And to me, it’s an ongoing thing. You start, you get your frameworks, you start to learn the language, the skills, get the insights, connect with other similar and different folks in different ways. And read the books and I think that group aspect and that interaction aspect is much stronger once you understand a bit more about yourself.

So we both have INTJ preferences as we’ve mentioned, so that’s introverted, intuitive, thinking, judging, and it is one of the rare of the types. So tell us about your personality type and the psychological insights you’ve gained over time that have helped you with self leadership and with personal growth.

Joe Arrigo: That’s so funny. People kept telling me that I had a bad memory and I was like, no, I have a good memory. I remember things. But then once I learned type and I learned the cognitive functions and I have memory for weird things, but I don’t have like a photographic memory.

So like first thing I learned was like my weaknesses, bad memory. The misunderstandings that come along with some of the jokes so that I would tell, or like the subtleties that I thought were really funny, but people didn’t understand it. I didn’t get why, what they didn’t get. And that was like part of the Extraverted Feeling that I’m not very good at.

So I learned my weaknesses and I go, okay, that’s what I have to deal with, these are my paths for growth. But some of the successes I attributed to being a pretty good thinker, extraverted thinking and taking action, being effective and not just having the wild-eyed idea, but then be like, okay, what are we going to do about it?

So I learned that, but then once you know what that’s called, then you know how to use it. If you don’t know what anything’s called, then you’re just like, assuming that you’re just walking around just like everyone else. So kind of like a zombie where you just don’t know you have no direction.

But, I think I learned that I had drive, that came out of my personality. Like I, and you probably feel this way, if you see something, you see the road very clearly, then it’s almost an inevitability that it’ll happen. As you get older, you’re just like, okay, I thought about it, I’ve planned. It. The only thing is like, when is it going to happen?

I learned that the worst thing to say to an INTJ is time is running out because like you want to accomplish all this stuff. But I learned that I had a vision that I couldn’t explain and that it wasn’t doing me any favors to try to explain something that I wasn’t really sure where all the dots were connecting or all the lines of best fit were coming together.

I thought it was funny that they would call INTJ’s a conspiracy theorist. And that’s just because the lines that connect don’t quite make a lot of sense. So I learned in my speech and when I pitch projects to people or pitch ideas, I have to be like, don’t take your crazy idea and tell them like, take the more linear approach and do it that way. So I learned that in the first one or two years of understanding myself.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I really relate to those too. As you were talking, I was thinking about how I’ve experienced similar things in my life. And one area is in leadership, for example. So I would know as a leader where I wanted to go, I could see the vision. I could see where I wanted to take people, but I really had to then break down that vision into the practicalities, the steps of, we need to do this and here’s why we need to do it. Both for myself and for other people. Because I think one thing that can happen if you’re not connected with the practicalities and tapping into the logical steps side of ourselves too, is get carried away with the vision itself. You’ll get it done, but maybe it’ll take longer because of not rooting yourself in the practicalities of it. Do you relate to that?

Joe Arrigo: I do. I do think we’re willing to try out a bunch of ideas and not be sad if they don’t work. But I do think that there is a bit of idealism that the INTJ has about how things will turn out. So I think like when Keirsey kind of put the NTs as the Rationals, I think NTs actually can be very idealistic about things too. So like, are you being practical with this idea? Like you’re going to create the first trillion dollar company? I don’t know. Joe, how do you think that’s going to happen?

Terri Connellan: The other example I thought of is when I come up with an idea, say for a group coaching program, it’s the sales page that is the hardest part for me. It’s how do I take what I know it’s going to look like, what I know is going to be great for people into language and into something that’s going to connect with people. And again, it’s tapping into that feeling and it’s almost like slowing yourself down to have a really good look at, so what is this actually going to do for people? And how can I put that into words?

Joe Arrigo: I struggle with that. I’ve struggled with this whole thing. And I talked to a lot of INTJs, NT types that for coaching, psychological type specially, personality, the ROI for our customer is not always apparent. If I’m a sales coach, I’m going to say, oh, in the next year, you’ll have a 10% better return because I’m going to write better sales scripts. Like it’s super easy to quantify that ROI. But for some people it’s like understanding yourself better isn’t a number. That you can go, like you’ll understand yourself 75% better, or you’ll have 33% better communication with your spouse. Like good luck trying to quantify that. I always go like, if people are asking, well, what am I going to get out of it? They’re not the right customer for me.

Terri Connellan: It’s funny, isn’t it? We’re talking about one particular personality type, but what we’re sharing too through how we’re talking is that this is the same, in a coaching conversation, in a one-on-one conversation, particularly using type insights, it’s clarity you can get to help you be clearer on your strengths, but also your blind spots.

Joe Arrigo: Yes. Sometimes I think just the weaknesses are better because your strengths are always going to be there. You’re just going to naturally either plateau or get a little better as you get older with your strengths, but the weaknesses are where you can have that real growth.

Sometimes, I think it’s just helpful to focus on the negatives out of the gate and manage the way forward. There’s some people that talk about balancing your functions or like doubling down. I think doubling down on your weaknesses or on strengths is good, but I don’t think you’ll balance. There’s no such thing. You’re just not going to balance like, be the same level of intensity and awareness of all of them.

Terri Connellan: I relate to what you’re saying. What I find in my coaching is I like to focus on areas for development and often it’s just one small thing which can be tweaked. Like it doesn’t have to be huge. Sue Blair’s particularly talked about how just making some minor differences, just a small tweak in some of areas which might be our weaknesses or our blind spots or our non preferences can make a huge difference to everything.

Joe Arrigo: It’s funny. It’s like you talk to, for those that know the type you can, you’ll laugh, but for those that know the ENTP, you’d be like, I think that sometimes ENTP can be a bit, you know, argumentative. They’re like, no we’re not. So it’s like, okay, you’re not even aware of that thing that you just did. So I think once you put that mirror up in front of people, they’re like, oh, I guess like everything’s a debate, even if I agree. So I think all the types have that moment, they all have it. If you’re, if you’re decent enough at coaching the model, they all have this revelation that’s life changing.

Terri Connellan: I think probably that journey we went through ourselves is exactly why we chose to get into type coaching, using type in our coaching because we saw the huge difference it made for us. So, I think the majority of us working in this field would have had that same revelatory moment.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I haven’t asked everyone about this, but I’m sure that like 99% of the people that are in type had that light bulb moment. Like there’s nothing else I can do with my life besides this now.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. For me, when I went through my transition, I made a list of my things I wanted to do to shift from the job I was in to the work that I do now. And top of that list was get skilled, more skilled in personality type. So it was right up there. So we met through social media, particularly LinkedIn, and you have a passion for social media and very active on LinkedIn. And you also have a great YouTube channel and you’ve got inspirational posts, great engagement. So interested to explore that area with you. Why do you engage so actively on social media and what do you love about it?

Joe Arrigo: I think it really gives me a chance to be more extraverted. Like there’s certainly a persona online. I do think my authenticity comes across. I’ve had many people say that I’ve met in person or just like had real intimate conversations with it. Like, oh, you’re the exact same person that is represented. So there’s not like a big change. I can just tell some people have a real difference in their persona and their real life.

And I think it’s just a good creative outlet for our type. I wasn’t really good at graphic design, but I knew that I was so jealous of people that could do it. So I learned through Canva and made some cool designs, then I started doing some memes and I’m like, I can learn this and I can expand my creative outlet, which I don’t think INTJs, are known as being very creative in the artistic sense. But I think, LinkedIn and social media gave me that outlet I would not have had before.

And then it gives me a place to reach people, possibly clients or reach people that just through normal networking I wouldn’t be able to meet. It gives me a chance to let all the vision and stuff come out and see how other people actually respond to it.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love seeing your posts and seeing how you interact with people. And I love too that you see it as a chance to be more extraverted and I think that’s true. It’s almost like being extraverted on your own terms, like choosing when you engage, choosing when to create the material, but then being able to connect with people, have the conversations you might have perhaps at a function if you were together, but asynchronistically in our terms, when it suits you, managing your energy. So, that’s an interesting perspective and I definitely agree, creativity is definitely a big one for me.

I love the creative aspect of social media. I tend to focus more on Instagram. That’s the place where I hang out. But, I love watching your LinkedIn and I think many could learn from how you bring that creativity, that engagement, and particularly memes and using video. You use video a lot too, don’t you?

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, it’s more time consuming. It gets less views and engagement on LinkedIn, but, I’m just convinced and many books have been written about this, that they see you, they see how your mannerisms are, they see how you talk, my wife is in a lot of my new videos.

So like Joe is a real person, he doesn’t have like a PR team of social media managers that are answering his emails or stuff like that. So when they’re ready to engage with me, if they’re like, oh, it’s like, this is the guy, I already know him. So that helps a lot with building trust because you need that with what we do.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And it’s just a fantastic way to connect. Connecting with people in the field, like, Dario Nardi and the guys from Personality Hackers, yourself. Authors for example, I love connecting with people who’ve written the books that I read. I just think that’s gold.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. Gosh, I really took a different path. I read a lot. I read all the books before I got really involved with the YouTube community. I’ve been kind of making my way through a lot of the books. I know that you have a book, right? Is it fiction?

Terri Connellan: Yeah, my book’s, Wholehearted, it’s nonfiction, self-leadership for women in transition, and I weave personality type into that book.

Joe Arrigo: Okay. Well, that’ll be one I’ll have to read then I’ll have to get a signed copy though. So, and I think I’ve had some luck. I’ve had some people kind of pull some strings on my behalf. I just interviewed Linda Berens, which is great. I got to interview John Beebe, Dario, of course. So yeah, those are the people that really have pioneered parts of personality type that we need that knowledge, especially as a young type coach. I wouldn’t go to YouTube right away before you have the basics, like have the real structure of it settled. So, I’ve been really fortunate to talk to those people.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, and I think that ability to have conversations like this, or I know you do the LinkedIn shorts for example, have chats with people. So it’s all great ways to connect and to learn, to engage and do it on our own terms and in ways we can manage our energy as introverts particularly. So do you have any specific tips for LinkedIn given it’s a platform that operates a little differently? A lot of people in my community for example, are on Instagram and Facebook, not so much on LinkedIn and I know some people find it more challenging than other platforms. So what tips do you have for LinkedIn, for people engaging or getting into that platform?

Joe Arrigo: To come up with a consistent way that you can provide or create content. I wouldn’t say get as stringent as a content calendar, but be consistent. If you’re going to post, make yourself post a certain amount of times per week, around the same time so people get used to that. People follow you. They might not consciously know, but they’re like, Joe always posts at 7 45 Eastern time and he’s always in the morning. And so that helps to be consistent. It also makes you create content. I think consistency is better than like the absolute best content in the world. Some people say, don’t post, unless it’s fabulous content, but most LinkedIn influencers and people that have grown a decent audience will say consistency is the most important thing.

I would say have a real opinion that’s not manufactured. Commenting on the new story of the day is great, but it doesn’t provide anything new. So if you’re not going to be adding something new or unique or a new spin. Think of something, keep thinking until there’s something like, wow, that’s a unique thought.

Respond to comments. A lot of people post and then never respond to their audience. So that’s a quick way to alienate people like, oh, he’s just in it to get likes and clicks and he is not in it to actually engage. I hate when people do that. And then proactively connect with people. So don’t wait for your inbox to fill up with invites. For six months, I was only searching for people by their type on LinkedIn and a ton of people put their types. I was just doing quotes, INTJ. And I was like adding all the INTJs I could find.

And then I did ISTJ the next day. So then you can connect. Then I was doing MBTI certified. And then I was finding all the MBTI folks. So that’s how I built up the community that way. And then just mix up your content, videos, memes, texts, pictures. Don’t just be a text poster.

Some people will definitely disagree with me. I know there’s one person who’s like all text posts cause it helps algorithm. But I think seeing your face on video really is helpful even though it’s way more work. So I think those would be my tips.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, great. That’s so much value in those quick tips you’ve given us. And, I think that idea of proactively connecting, particularly around the content that you’re creating and going, seeking out connections is a really great tip and it can apply to anything, can’t it? Like if you’re in recruitment or coaching or authors for example, anything you do, you could use that same technique.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I do some side coaching on LinkedIn. I don’t advertise it, but people will just ask me if I can help. You would be so shocked at what people will put on their, About section on LinkedIn. That’s a searchable term. You could just put like, A Trak enthusiast or collector of stamps. Put that in on LinkedIn. And there’ll be like thousands of people that are into that, that you just didn’t realize they put it out there in the world. And now you have a whole new audience of people to talk to. So ridiculous search terms are the way to go.

Terri Connellan: Interesting. Yeah. I wonder if some of the challenges people have, probably people like me, is because they used it in a corporate sense in their job role. So it was more a way to say, well, here I am, here’s what I do, not that way of connecting. So it’s actually a mindset shift to see LinkedIn in a different way.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, most people aren’t their jobs. Like on their gravestone, they’re not putting digital marketer, I guarantee you they’re putting something else. So that’s a better place to connect with them is what they’re about, not what their title is and all that stuff.

Terri Connellan: Yeah and your YouTube channel is fantastic. I was just hopping in there to have a look at your latest and you had a fantastic video there about why the INTJ will end up poor and homeless, which was a great grab title about why we don’t see money as a primary focus, which I’d again, totally agree with. I’m married to an ISTJ as I know you are. And that was a great move.

Yeah. I think, again, it’s just an example on YouTube, you’re obviously doing different content, maybe some cross-fertilization, but using this specific channel in a way that’s going to reach people on that platform.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I think dynamism or being dynamic is interesting because there are more facets to people. So like I have my professional LinkedIn persona, but then I also have like a whole other field, which is YouTube, where it’s obviously a lot more informal, but it’s kind of funny but it’s still helpful because it’s still all around types as a professional use of type. And then there’s like a fun use of type. But I have booked some of my closest clients through YouTube. So you just never know what’s going to get people to be like, oh, Joe, what you said about being poor and homeless, like really resonated with me. I’d love your help. Like you never know.

Terri Connellan: That’s great. I love seeing the way you work, and there’s plenty to learn from engaging with you and connecting with you. So recommend that to folks.

Given you have so much and produced so much fabulous content and engagement, people must be wondering how much time you spend, what helps you to keep up such a regular schedule of posting and interacting. So if you could share a bit about that with us, that would be great.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I kind of said something about like a content calendar. I don’t have a content calendar. What I have was that running idea list and now it’s muscle memory now that like I gotta post, I was like four times a week. So I have a constant note that says, make a new meme, write a new blog. Probably like 25% of my posts are not planned. They’re just spur of the moment that like that Ni lightning hits you and you’re like, I gotta do this post right now, but that’s like 10% of the time. So you can only do it if you’re passionate about the subject.

Like if you hate what you do, you will not be able to post that consistently. You’ll be so like, your soul will die a little bit each time you have to post. But for MBTI, there’s limitless possibilities.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, for sure. My problem’s often, what do I post today? Cause there’s so many ideas buzzing around, but, I like that idea of just having a running ideas list. I think sometimes too, we can over-complicate things.

Joe Arrigo: I think that people that are in situation need to just start. Just throw an idea out there. It may not do well at all. I had the same conversation with Sue Blair right after my presentation. And she did three or four really good posts that got like incredible engagement. And she was like, oh, Joe, this actually was really good. And I’m like, yeah, all you gotta to do is start. You have so much knowledge. Like, you’re basically like holding back humanity by not putting your knowledge out there.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, they were a fabulous posts. It’s just a reminder for all of us, working at our zone of genius and where we want to show up how we want to show up and what ideas we want to put together and just putting that together. So, one thing I’ve noticed is working with clients is visibility and vulnerability is something that particularly some types seem to struggle with more than others or maybe it’s individuals. So have you noticed any patterns around type or do you find it’s more an individual thing that issue of visibility and vulnerability in social media?

Joe Arrigo: Well, I do think it is a type thing. I think it’s more the F types you see engaging. So either introverted feeling types or extroverted feeling types tend to be very into vulnerability. There definitely is a shift towards mental health and the celebration of those who talk openly about mental health across the world with the pandemic, even more. So I think that those types are much more okay with being visible as someone that’s had mental health issues or struggles, or saying, ‘Hey, if you are struggling, reach out to me, I’ll help you.’ Or ‘can I help you?’ I think that is more the F type if you want to just speak broadly. F types tend to be more open with the visibility and vulnerability aspect of social media.

But you can almost see the types so clearly in a discussion, especially in argument, how some people want to argue very factually or they only post memes about facts or they actively say like, stop crying about this. Like you can clearly see the TF dichotomy so clearly, I think that’s the easiest one to see is like that dichotomy of which types are willing to be more controversial, argumentative. There’s some people that’ll just like back down from an argument and that might be more of an F type. Like they’re agreeing with everyone. They don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. So they’re like, yeah, thanks for your input. I appreciate it. Yeah, you could see that there. Do, do you see that? Let me ask you that question.

Terri Connellan: I work a lot with NF clients, INFJ, INFP, and I do notice that for some of those folks, the connection is really important, but what I see is that, it’s almost like, every post has got to be right. This connection, the feeling has gotta be right. So it’s almost too much, becomes too challenging. And I also say that that people who tend to have those types tend to be the ones saying I’ve got to step off social media. I need a break. I need some time and I’ve said that before, I very rarely feel that. To me, it’s just part of my everyday. I’ll post beautiful birds on my deck and on Instagram and I’ll share about the books I’m reading. And sometimes I’ll do much more crafted posts related to my book or my content, but social media isn’t a drain to me. So that’s one thing I see and, if people need to do that, that’s what they need to do. It’s not a criticism. It’s just an observation and everybody’s different. And certainly for me, I don’t find social media drains my energy, for example,

Joe Arrigo: There are certain times when it drains me but I do think that certain types are much more effected by what’s going on, on social media that day. Like if there’s some sort of political event or there’s some sort of social unrest, they see too many people posting negative things, they actually have physical sensations of like depression or like something will happen to them so that that’s when they’ll take the breaks, as you said, that’s a good point. That would be an interesting experiment just to get the data. You don’t need the data we know, but, yeah, that they are more likely to just take a mental health break.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s right. So I think that’s a really good observation too. So lots of different ways we all engage with social media, some of them influenced by personality, some by individuals and some by what’s coming into our feed. Interesting to have a look at those issues. So what tips would you provide for people who want to be more visible on social media and on podcasts, but find it challenging?

Joe Arrigo: I think the first thing would be to be extremely good, looking that’s number one, just kidding.

Well, like I mentioned, you really just have to find something that you could do a presentation on right now. Has to be a topic that any second of the day, you could do a speech on it, cause that means that you have enough content in your brain, that you could be visible in your niche, whatever your passion is about. So that’s the first thing you got to figure out what that is. I think that people will find it challenging are those, there are certain types of tend to have like analysis paralysis. I think the INTJ falls into this. I think a lot of thinking types might fall in this as well, where they just need to get one more search or they just need to read one more book or they need to take one more LinkedIn class before they can finally, I’ll be an expert and I can start talking about the subject.

If that is your goal, you’ll never be ready to get out there and post on social media. It’s kind of a sales technique, but give yourself like 30 days, 30, 60, 90 days, see where you’re at. You might post and get zero likes and then just get depressed and no one likes your content, but you gotta be consistent or you’ll never really know. So, I think to answer your question, start with something you could talk all day about, and then chop it up into little anecdotes or content.

Terri Connellan: Great. I love that. It’s nice and simple. And I think like a lot of things it’s just starting and learning from doing rather than trying to get it perfect. For a lot of people if we looked back on our early attempts at social media, it’d be nothing like what we’re doing now, because we’ve been on the journey. We’ve connected with more people, we’ve learnt skills along the way. So, I think encouraging people to hop in and have a go and do different things. But yeah, definitely start with what you know, where you feel comfortable’s a really good tip. So thanks for that. So a question I’m asking each of the guests on the create your story podcast is a big question, but interesting to see what comes to mind for people. How have you created your story of your lifetime?

Joe Arrigo: Man. I’m one of those people that like, every time I hear this thing about what is your story? People want to hear your story? Like, I never think it’s interesting. I’m just like, it’s really basic. There’s nothing like, people have to hear this because once they hear Joe’s story, like, oh my gosh, those people are going to be booking you like crazy. And all these book deals are going to be coming in. And, how have you created your story?

Terri Connellan: Something that’s been a real driver or a purpose, or maybe some learning that you learned early on, it’s something you can consistently provide. Some people commented, and it’s interesting looking at type is that it’s tended to be, they’ve just done what they’ve done. And then they’ve had a backwards view to see what actually worked. So is it intentional?

Joe Arrigo: I think it became intentional, like I think my story has been one of striving for intelligence, or some sort of universal knowledge that can be applied, like finding the essential truth. Recently there was a quote I saw from Tesla, who’s an INTJ and he said something like, my brain is only a receiver and that’s how I in through that, I get the secrets of the universe.

And I was like, that is exactly what I’ve been doing. Like every thing I want to do or strive for is like an essential truth or how things are, how things are all connected. So in 2020 I made a goal to read a hundred books and I read 105 and I was like, okay, that’s great. And that’s a goal that I could accomplish, put my mind to it.

But within that is like, I want to be a sponge for knowledge, because eventually I’ll take that and I’ll do something amazing. So I think that is my story arc is lifelong learning will lead to some sort of universal discovery that I can then apply to everyone. I think that’s going to be my arc. I don’t think I’m going to be a millionaire. I don’t think I’m going to be like, Forbes 40 under 40, anything like that, but I don’t think that would match the profile of me as an INTJ.

Terri Connellan: I love that idea of essential strengths, patterns, how things are connected and that idea of investing yourself in books, in learning, discovering things, that universal discovery, the patterns. Again, that’s very introverted intuiting, the patterns, how things connect and then making new connections, new insights to share with others.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. And just to go back to the Tesla thing, I think that all the types, as dumb as it sounds at the beginning, all the types need to find a type that inspires them historically. Like Personality Database whatever you think about the site, it’s kind of funny, but it’s all user driven typing, but they’ve typed everybody from everywhere across the world. And every literature, non-fiction, fiction, like everything that can be typed has been typed. And you go to INTJ, you look at the historical figures, political figures, authors, and you read those authors books, or you read the story about like, I’m reading a book on Elon right now. I’ve read a book on Bobby Fischer. And I’m like, these guys have the same in a way mindset that I did and look what they did. So an ENFP could do the same thing with famous ENFPs, read their story, read their struggles, like, cause I believe things are cyclical. So if you can see where things are going or other ENFPs or ISFPs have been, I think that’ll be more valuable than just randomly reading books, because like they’re a top seller.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. I did my training with Mary McGuiness, who you might know, the Australian psychological type leader, and she’s a great lover of memoir and story, and biography. And when you’re training with her and spend time with her, she’s talking about people’s stories and that’s what I’m interested in too, that idea of, as you’ve just mentioned, read the memoir, find the inspiring stories, find people, maybe like you and look at their life story and see what you can learn from it. So, that’s great advice. So the other question I’m asking folks, in my book Wholehearted, is about self-leadership for women in transition, applicable to men as well and I have 15 wholehearted self-leadership tips in there. So I’m just interested in what your top wholehearted leadership tips and practices might be, whatever that means to you. So, again, just drawing from your experience, what would you draw out as a few key tips to give to others, to help them with leading themselves through life?

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, this is a question that comes up in my coaching and I was going to mention it earlier, but, this is a perfect time for it. First thing it’s like, Fi, it’s the, what’s your values? What’s your inner compass? Most people will not admit it. They really won’t. When you say, what do you want to do? They’ll give you like some answer that’s not actually what they want to do. Because either they’re embarrassed that society would say, oh, no, you want to do that? No, that’s never going to make any money or that’s so childish or like, how are you even going to do that? So they, they just don’t tell you really what they want to do.

Like, I want to do greeting cards. I want to write greeting cards. I feel like they’re never gonna make any money. So they just don’t, they’re not honest with themselves. So then they pursue things that are like only half-heartedly into. So I would say like your north star, whatever you want to call it then once you do that, you can have passion towards actually accomplishing your goals. Like, in terms of self-leadership, it’s kind of funny because I really have been promoting the 8 Keys to Self-leadership book by Dario, which is kind of a perfect way to just open the book, look at any page and go, oh, can I do that well? Oh, I need to really ask myself this question about introverted sensing. Am I making the same mistakes a bunch or something like that?

In terms of self-leadership I was doing an interview with another INTJ and he said the first thing is make sure you’re not lying to yourself or make sure that you’re internally consistent with your beliefs. Like don’t criticize people for being overweight and drinking while you’re at a bar. You know what I mean? So I think that’d be the number one thing is don’t deceive yourself, which is why I get so upset with people when they use their title, their position, as a way to say that I don’t need to develop. I’m already the C-level person at this company. Like I’m done, but that’s just, self-deception right there.

Terri Connellan: I love that. Just starting with your values, which for some people will be quite natural and for others, it won’t be so natural. Your values I guess are pretty consistent, but they get shaped over time and you’re clear about them over time. So I think that’s great advice. And Dario’s book, 8 Keys to Self-leadership there. Dario Nardi. It’s mentioned in my book. It’s a great resource which I use a lot in my coaching as well.

And it’s that idea that it’s each of the eight cognitive processes and functions. And as you’ve said, just that ability to open it any page and have a think about, introverted thinking, extraverted feeling, where does that sit? You don’t have to have a huge knowledge of personality type to just dive in and understand more.

And Dario’s a very accessible author and based on neuroscience. So it’s a great place to start. So, yeah. Thanks for that tip too. Okay. So, that wraps up our conversation for today. It’s been a fantastic chatting with you. Where can people find more about you and your work online?

Joe Arrigo: I would say first, thank you for having me. This is really fun. I could talk double this amount of time about personality types. So could you. So thank you for having me. This has been awesome. And I really think LinkedIn is the place where I’m at the most. I respond to direct messages. You don’t need to fill out a form. It won’t take me 24 hours to get back to you. So if you want to engage, we can do LinkedIn. My YouTube channel is Ghost of Jung so I also respond to comments there, but I honestly say LinkedIn is the place to start.

Terri Connellan: Great. I’ve certainly loved connecting with you on LinkedIn, and you’re definitely a great person to engage with, your posts themselves, but also just chatting and getting to know you. And I know many people have taken that opportunity and I encourage others to do the same.

So thanks again, Joe. It’s been a real pleasure talking with you today. And yeah, I agree. We could chat all day about all these fascinating topics. But I hope what we’ve shared will be really of interest to people and gives them some tips for going further with social media, with psychological type, with thinking about themselves. So thank you. Appreciate you spending the time chatting today. Take care.

Joe Arrigo: It’s been great. Thanks Terri.

About Joe Arrigo

You can connect with Joe:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-arrigo/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/GhostofJung/videos

Calendly to book a time: https://calendly.com/advisr/30min

MailChimp (to get on Joe’s newsletter ) http://eepurl.com/htJ2XH

Terri’s links to explore:

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching, personality type & writing programs:

Work with me

Personality Stories Coaching a personality type course + 90 minute coaching debrief

The Writing Road Map – 6 week intensive starts 28 February with Beth Cregan

The Writing Road Trip – community writing program with Beth Cregan email list

How I fulfilled my vision to become a Personality Type Coach

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

inspiration & influence planning & productivity reading notes

How to read for more creativity, pleasure and productivity

August 7, 2017

People have asked me how I get so much reading done. Here are my strategies for how to read for more creativity, pleasure and productivity.

On Quiet Writing, we share the threads that tie our wholehearted stories together. They can be passions, skills, values – anything we go back to over and over again in different ways.

One of the key golden threads that ties my story together is reading and a passionate love of books. My life has been a mosaic of loving reading, learning about it, teaching it and sharing this love with others.

In this post, I share my reading story and background in teaching reading and sharing its joys and skills. I reflect on my current approaches, providing strategies for reading more broadly and effectively for creative purposes and pleasure.

My reading story

I wrote in my last Creative and Connected about our unique blend and how the skills and experience we bring together make up our onlyness and contribution to the world. When I reflect on my onlyness, the art of reading, teaching people to read at and sharing this love shines out.

As a child I always loved books. I can remember being at school in Year 1 reading a story about The Cutty Sark. It’s my first memory of being a fluent, independent reader. I grew up in a house full of books and my father was an avid reader. On holidays, I can remember him reading Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and The Source by James A Michener. He read Australian classics to me when I was young – Blinky Bill and Snugglepot and Cuddlepie and those stories still resonate.

I excelled at English, especially exploring books deeply and writing essays about them. I was headed for a career in journalism and communications but was put off by the more extraverted side of this. So I studied English and Education instead, enabling me to develop my love of reading and literature and also learn to share it. I studied primary education and focused on literacy. My Honours year featured research on literacy and language structures in early readers and whether they encouraged children to enjoy reading. I also researched the poetic reading experience and whether educators fostered a love of reading poetry.

Later, I completed a Diploma in Adult Education specialising in literacy. This focused on adults who had missed out on the ability to read and write well in their first language or who needed to learn it in English as another language. For nearly 20 years I taught in this field, teaching everything from how to read signs to working with apprentices on their trade courses to teaching speed reading and reading for tertiary and academic purposes. I gained a Masters in Language and Literacy specialising in English for Speakers of Other Languages where I learnt all about genre and social contexts.

Then, I became a leader in adult vocational education including working on strategic policy and advising Ministers and Government. My reading was all policy documents, reports, media and many emails! I also read about leadership, mentoring, competencies of leadership and Myers-Briggs Type Indicator as I built my leadership and self-leadership skills especially as an introvert.

And through all this time, I read for more personal enjoyment: for pleasure, for information and for productivity. I love to mix reading novels with reading that is more about personal development, learning and knowledge. Being an INTJ Myers-Briggs Type, Introverted Intuition is a dominant function. The ideas and symbols from books are a central organising principle in both my inner and outer life with pretty much everything stemming from that quiet reading time.

The many skills of being able to read

As my background shows, there are many skills of being able to read and many ways in which it plays out. Here are just some examples:

functional reading – to get around and meet the basic needs of society
content reading – reading for vocational areas, for a purpose such as a course
reading for pleasure – focused on the pure experience and enjoyment of reading and books
reading for information – reading to research, gain ideas, summarise, scan and skim
academic reading – skills of reading literature and articles to summarise, argue a point, write an essay and come up with something new
reading for social media – scanning, reviewing, liking, responding, connecting, visual reading
reading for strategic purposes – policy, strategy, positioning, influencing, persuasion

And the truth is, we often mix them up to suit our reading purpose.

There’s also a kind of reading linked to creativity and productivity and ‘reading like a writer’. It’s something I am finding myself thinking about as I step into more fully embracing my writing life. It’s as if we need to bring all the many skills of being able to read together and apply them in a new way. This is especially so in this environment of social media and technological choices around how we read. So what does it mean to ‘read like a writer’?

Reading like a writer

Novelist V E Schwab takes the role of reading seriously in her job as a writer. In an interview on Caroline Donahue’s The Secret Library Podcast, she says:

About two/three years ago, I decided I wasn’t reading enough. I was really busy and I couldn’t find time…At the beginning of the interview I said “it’s not about finding time, it’s about making it.” And I realised that reading is a fundamental part of my job and not just in the, “Oh I need to know what else is selling and what else on the shelves.” It’s a fundamental part of becoming a better writer…”

V E Schwab describes a ‘story monster’ that lives inside her chest and the more stories she takes in, the cleverer it gets. The story monster provides intuitive guidance when writing, like a barometer, enabling her to feel the story. Reading broadly is the best way to ‘feed’ the story monster, and is a critical input into the writing process. She explains:

So I decided that reading needed to be treated like any other part of my job and needed to be something that I made time for, a commitment. And so I set out to read one hundred books a year. I always have one paperback, I always have an e-book and I always have an audiobook….I’m continually accompanied by narratives….It’s still difficult, I still have to work at it…but I’m just committed to it.

You can read V E Schwab’s summary of her year in reading for 2016 here. This interview and her committed approach to reading made me think about my own practices. It really helped me to hone my thinking about the various reading skills we bring into play, how we can vary our reading for creativity, pleasure and productivity and read like a writer.

How to read for more creativity, pleasure and productivity

Some of the hallmarks of reading for more creativity, pleasure and productivity including reading like a writer include: setting a target, accountability, variety, intent, making the most of the opportunity to read and making time.

Here are some strategies for reading for more creativity, pleasure and productivity. They are based on my knowledge and experience as well as tips from other committed readers including V E Schwab, Joanna Penn, Gabriella Pereira and Nick Hornby:

1 Read across different book formats

In line with V E Schwab’s strategy, read across book formats – hard copy, ebook and audiobook. I find I read differently and choose specific types of books for each format. I tend to use ebooks when I want to really study a book and make electronic highlights and notes. I’m listening to audiobooks on writing techniques and business for authors. And I like to relax and read for pleasure with the hard copy of a book in my hand. You can autosynch between devices including between ebook and audiobook. You might decide to go pretty well all digital as Joanna Penn has done. Find out what you like to read and how and mix it up!

2 Make time for reading

All the committed readers I know including myself make time for reading. They don’t watch a lot of television or they get rid of the TV altogether. Or they get used to reading with distractions! Social media is another time waster that takes away our reading time, so monitor that carefully. Find a way to weave reading into activities like driving and walking via audio books. It’s simply a case of committing to reading more and putting the strategies in place to make it happen.

3 Commit to reading goals for the year

One strategy that helps is to set a reading goal for the year such as 100 books a year as V E Schwab has done. You can also join book clubs or reading challenges with goals such as the Australian Women Writers Reading Challenge I have participated in over a number of years. I’m aiming to read 52 books this year. I know I need to be more organised in tracking my progress to this goal. I’m also aware I do a lot of reading that is not related to completing a book, but it’s still a goal worth shooting for or extending beyond.

4 Be accountable to your reading goals

Once you’ve set the goal, be accountable to it. My Creative and Connected posts each week are an opportunity to check in on my reading. It’s amazing how quickly the week rolls around and just being accountable keeps me focused. I could perhaps include a goal and tracking in my Creative and Connected post as a way of keeping an eye on progress and being more accountable. You can also keep track of your reading via Goodreads.

5 Read more than one book at a time

Probably one of the big changes in my reading habits is that I no longer read one book at a time. Reading across different formats has helped to break this limiting way of thinking. I’m now reading about 4 or 5 books at once. I read across formats depending on the circumstances. And I can pick up the book that best suits the time I have – like reading to relax at the end of the day rather than speeding up the mind with ideas. It might not be for everyone and there are times when you might want to read one book at a time, but it’s worth experimenting with.

6 Read across genres (mix it up)

Linked to both #1 and #5 is reading across genres and across fiction and non-fiction. There’s a fabulous list of genres here. V E Schwab reminds us of the value of reading broadly. If you’re writing a novel, read both inside and outside the genre you are writing in for new perspectives. If you like historical fiction, read the occasional fantasy novel. Have both fiction and non-fiction books on the go at once so you can choose what suits the moment best. Even if you love literary fiction, have lighter novels available to you so you can keep reading when you are not quite up to the more intense read.

7 Stop reading a book you don’t like

Another habit I’ve learnt to break is feeling that I need to finish a book even if I don’t like it. Nick Hornby in Stuff I’ve Been Reading says: “Read what you enjoy, not what bores you.” And in The Complete Polysyllabic Spree, he says of a boring book: “Please, please: put it down. You’ll never finish it. Start something else.” It’s good advice. It only slows you down and wastes your time.

8 Read actively: highlight, take notes, make reading lists

Reading actively helps keep you engaged so highlight, underline and take notes. Ebook options make it easy to highlight electronically and keep these documents as a single record. I keep notes in a large Moleskine journal too if I am reviewing a book, such as when I wrote about White Hot Truth. This more intensive reading can be time-consuming but it rewards you many times over in return as you engage deeply with an author’s message. In DIY MFA, Gabriela Pereira suggests actively making reading lists just as you would in a formal MFA (Master of Fine Arts) program.

9 Share your reading experiences

Share your reading experiences whether it be on Instagram, your blog or on Goodreads. Write reviews, share quotes, celebrate your library, participate in reading challenges, blog about genres that you love and why. Through my daily Tarot Narrative, I link books to a tarot story for the day which helps me to revisit the books in my library and share value from them. Others are appreciating this connection! Social media has been such a boon for sharing reading experiences, finding out about new books and reminding us of what we love.

10 Read like a writer

Gabriela Pereira in DIY MFA says that “Reading like a writer is like trying to figure out how a magician performs his tricks.” V E Schwab suggests a similar view on this when she talks about her ‘story monster’. It’s really about getting behind the scenes, under the hood and getting a feel for the narrative or structure of non-fiction. As Pereira goes onto say:

Because the moment you figure out how the author pulled off her trick, you’ll be able to start applying it to your own work.

11 Read about reading

And finally, read about reading and take the time to reflect on your reading journey just as I have done here. Seek out books that help you take a meta view of your reading patterns and skills and how to extend them. Connect with those that seek to spread the pleasure and joy of reading through reviews and sharing information about books.

I’m preparing two special reads about reading coming soon:

Creative and Connected this Friday will feature a round up of books about reading and celebrating reading: the art, history, process and joy of it. So look out for that!
I’m working on a free ebook on reading as creative influence. It’s about the books that have influenced my story, so sign up to Quiet Writing to be the first to receive it once it’s released this month! Just pop your email in the box on the right.

And whilst I’ve talked about reading more in some ways, it’s not always about quantity. Reading more creatively, productively and enjoying it is always a valuable goal, regardless of volume. A message that resonated in my recent coaching training is to honour our spend, making sure we carve out space to apply what we read and implement the knowledge.

Thanks for reading. I hope this has been useful and of interest.

Share your thoughts on how you read more or differently for reading, creativity and pleasure – would love to hear! You can respond via the Comments here or on Facebook.

Keep in touch & free ebook on the ’36 Books that Shaped my Story’

Reading is a great love of mine – you can get my free 95-page ebook on the 36 Books that Shaped my Story – just sign up with your email address in the box to the right or below. You will also receive updates from Quiet Writing and its passions. This includes personality type, coaching, creativity, writing, tarot and other connections to help express your unique voice in the world.

Quiet Writing is on Facebook and Instagram – keep in touch and interact with the growing Quiet Writing community.

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My body of work

December 6, 2019

Body of work

Body of Work is a concept I work on with my coaching clients. Prompted by the ideas in Pamela Slim’s book, Body of Work: Finding the Thread that Ties your Story Together, we explore the ingredients and continuing themes emerging and linking over time.

I have found body of work to be a powerful foundation for my own transition journey. On the day I was made redundant from the organisation I worked in for over 30 years I shared a piece, Your body of work: the greatest gift for transition to a bright new life.

Body of work offers us a perspective to see patterns, themes and skills in our life’s work and to see how they can be combined and developed in new ways.

As I’ve moved through this time of transition, I have realised that the key threads that tie my story together are:

making a difference (always a motivator for me, sharing skills and knowledge to help others);
teaching, coaching, mentoring, blogging (different forms of empowering others and sharing knowledge, skills and experience);
creativity (innovating, leading it, fostering it, writing);
leadership and self-leadership (leading others means leading yourself first);
being a reflective practitioner and knowing myself (a constant search for self-understanding, professional development and reflecting on experiences in work and other life roles);
writing (the authentic heart of it all, being a writer, becoming a teacher of writing and weaving it as a strategic and professional superpower in my life);
introversion and intuition as key strengths and gifts as an INTJ, the captains of my personality ship I needed to learn to work with; and,
in all of this, being wholehearted in how we live and work, not bringing parts of ourselves to the door of any workplace or relationship.

Here is more about my body of work – qualifications, skills, work experience, speaking engagements and publication notes – as worked on over time.

I hope it helps you to see my strengths and the recurring themes in my life and how this concept also might apply to you. If you would like to work with me on better understanding your body of work over time to support you in transition, head over to this link for more information.

Work with me

Overview of current focus and experience

A self-employed writer, certified life coach and personality type practitioner at Quiet Writing, a graduate of the Beautiful You Coaching Academy certified in Jung/Myers-Briggs personality type, I support women to make transitions to more creative and wholehearted lives through enhanced self-leadership and personality understanding, gathering the threads of their story and body of work so they can shine.

A highly experienced leader in adult education and the vocational education and training sector by background, I was most recently in the role of Director Strategic Policy for TAFE NSW, the largest and leading provider of technical and vocational education in Australia. With an extensive knowledge of the tertiary education sector, I worked in the Office of the NSW Minister for Education, the Hon Adrian Piccoli, providing high-level policy advice to the Minister and NSW Government based on wide experience as a senior leader and teacher in the sector.

My passion for innovative leadership and self-leadership is the thread that ties my vocational and personal experience together. A creative change agent in all the roles I have fulfilled, I now focus on supporting women to foster creative self-leadership in line with their deeper meaning and purpose.

Current work focus

Writer, Life Coach & Personality Type Practitioner, Quiet Writing™, January 2017 to present

Social Media & Communications Co-ordinator, Australian Association for Psychological Type Inc, June 2018 to present (volunteer role)

Leading social media and communications for AusAPT, the Australian Association for Psychological Type, a non-profit membership organisation and community promoting knowledge and ethical use of psychological type.

Coaching qualifications

Internationally Certified Life Coach, Beautiful You Coaching Academy, a program certified by the International Coaching Federation, completed July 2017.

Personality/Psychological Type Certifications

Majors Personality Type Inventory™, via the Institute for Type Development with Mary McGuiness, December 2016

Majors Personality Type Elements™, via the Institute for Type Development with Mary McGuiness, May 2018

Tertiary Qualifications

Master of Arts in Language and Literacy/Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages, University of Technology, Sydney, 1998-2001 Focus: Innovation and Language/Literacy/Numeracy; Online Education: Open, Flexible and Distance Learning, Research Methodologies.

Graduate Diploma in Adult (Basic) Education, University of Technology, Sydney, 1985-6 Focus: Adult Learning, Facilitation, Reflective Practice, Consultancy, Communications, Language/Literacy & Numeracy,

Bachelor of Arts (Honours) Diploma of Education, Macquarie University, Sydney, 1979-83 Focus: Honours in Education – 2nd Class Division 1 research on readability and literacy/text quality. Majors in Education, English and Linguistics; Diploma of Education in Early Childhood/Primary Education.

Certificate IV in Teaching and Assessment, TAFE NSW 2008 Focus: a specialist qualification for teaching and assessing accredited courses in adult vocational education in Australia.

Membership + office bearer roles

Member of the National Committee for the Australian Association of Psychological Type Inc (AusAPT) as NSW State representative

Member of the British Association of Psychological Type

Member of the C G Jung Society Sydney

Recent articles, guest posts and essays

How In The World Does The INTJ Personality Type Manage Loss? What You Need To Know, published November 2019

Stepping Up Through Fear, published July 2019

Learning the value of writing as self-care, published in I Wrote It Anyway Anthology, edited by Caroline Donahue and Dal Kular, published December 2018

Starting over as a life coach at age 55, published in Issue 54 of inspired COACH Magazine, published November 2018.

Anchors of self-leadership in seas of change, in Captain of Your Own Life Anthology, edited by Angelique Desiree, May 2018

This is how to be more aware of the superior value of neurodiversity in the workplace, published March 2018

‘Unapologetically Quiet’ a poem published in a post 25 tips to living unapologetically edited by Sabrina Davis of Skyhigh and Believe, published March 2018.

Books for emerging coaches to inspire your life, work and business, published in Issue 51 of inspired COACH Magazine, February 2018

This is what happens when recruiters make inclusion mistakes (and how to avoid it), published December 2017

How to make the most of the right recruitment opportunities as an introvert, published October 2017

Extraverted Intuition: Imagining the Possibilities, published October 2017

How to become the heart of successful leadership: this is what you need to know, published August 2017

Introverted Intuition: Learning from its Mystery, published June 2017

Shining a Quiet Light: Working the gifts of introversion, originally published in The Introvert Effect Magazine Issue 1 February 2017 and reproduced on Quiet Writing with permission of The Introvert Effect editor, Katherine MacKenzie-Smith.

Recent speaking engagements

Learned Wisdom: Journeys in Type and Transition, Australian Association of Psychological Type Conference, Melbourne, 23 November 2019

Learned Wisdom: Journeys in Type and Transition, British Association of Psychological Type Conference, Milton Keynes, UK, 13 April 2019

Previous work experience

You can find more detail on each of these positions in my profile on LinkedIn.

Special Advisor Education Policy & Director Strategic Policy, TAFE NSW, February to December 2016
Associate Institute Director, Customer Engagement, TAFE NSW South Western Sydney Institute, January – February 2016
Institute Director – TAFE NSW Riverina Institute, April to December 2015
Departmental Liaison Officer, Office of the Minister for Education, August 2013 to March 2015
Institute Director – TAFE NSW Western Institute, August to October 2012 and short term relieving opportunities – Institute Director, TAFE South Western Sydney Institute, 2012-13
Associate Institute Director – Strategy and Development, TAFE NSW South Western Sydney Institute, March 2012 – August 2013
Director Business Development, TAFE NSW South Western Sydney Institute, January 2011 to March 2012
Associate Director – Business and Services, TAFE NSW South Western Sydney Institute, March – December 2010
Associate Director – Strategy and Development, TAFE NSW South Western Sydney Institute, March – June 2009
Director Employment Preparation/Foundation Skills Faculty, TAFE NSW South Western Sydney Institute, July 2007 – March 2010
Associate Director/College Director – Ultimo, TAFE Sydney Institute, March – July 2007
Director Sutherland College, TAFE Sydney Institute, April – May 2006, Oct 2006 – March 2007
Director Organisational Development, TAFE Sydney Institute, September 2006
Assistant Director Educational Programs, TAFE Sydney Institute, Sutherland & Ultimo, 2001-5
Senior Education Officer, Ultimo College, TAFE Sydney Institute, 2000-2001
Teacher/Head Teacher, Adult Basic Education (Literacy/Numeracy & Communications) and Tertiary Preparation, TAFE NSW: Padstow 1987-9, Cooma 1990-2000

Key publications & presentations contributing to excellence in Adult Vocational Education and Training

‘Systematic Innovation meets Australian policy changes’, Leadership: Journal for Post-Secondary Leaders, Vol. 19.2 Fall, 21-23, co-authored with Dr John Mitchell

Presentation to AUSTAFE National Conference: ‘SWSi Innovate: a publication, a model and a set of skills for growing the business’, 11 October, 2013

‘SWSi innovate’: the model of systematic innovation at TAFE NSW – South Western Sydney Institute, as Project Lead with Dr John Mitchell (author), 2012

Presentation to Australian Vocational Education Research Association, on A Manager’s Perspective on Learner Support, University of Technology Sydney October 2010

Towards a model of leadership impact to support innovation, Knowledge Tree ejournal, 2004

Final presentation for National Flexible Learning Leader year: Leadership impact and innovation, Flexible Learning Leaders final workshop, 2004

Adult Basic Education Research Handbook, 1991, University of Technology, Sydney

Australian Adult Basic Education Research Database, 1990, NSW TAFE/University of Technology, Sydney

Adult Basic Education Research Project, in Australasian Public Libraries and Information Services Bulletin, Vol 3, No 3, September 1990, 195-208

Published Poetry

Archetype, Writers at the Raglan, ‘Writers at the Raglan’. Cooma: NightOwl Publishing, 1998:84.

Demoniac, Writers at the Raglan, ‘Writers at the Raglan’. Cooma: NightOwl Publishing, 1998:82.

Metonymy, Writers at the Raglan, ‘Writers at the Raglan’. Cooma: NightOwl Publishing, 1998:62.

Optics, Muse, No 159, March, 1997:15 and Writers at the Raglan, ‘Writers at the Raglan’. Cooma: NightOwl Publishing, 1998.44. Also in this post on Quiet Writing.

Poetics, Muse, No 157, November/December 1996:15 and Writers at the Raglan, ‘Writers at the Raglan’. Cooma: NightOwl Publishing, 1998.9.

Vessel, Writers at the Raglan, ‘Writers at the Raglan’. Cooma: NightOwl Publishing, 1998.97.

December, Mattoid, No 35, 1989: 41

Ten Paces and Turn, Mattoid, No 35, 1989: 42

The Conversation, Mattoid, No 35, 1989: 41

Free ebooks

Reading Wisdom Guide for Creatives, Coaches and Writers

A curated collection of books for creatives, coaches and writers of all kinds. It features all the best books I’ve found in writing, creativity, coaching, productivity, personality, transition and transformation all in one place! I share my reading wisdom of many years to craft this synopsis of 45 top books to inspire your creativity, reading, writing and life.

Get the Reading Guide

36 Books that Shaped my Story

A 94-page celebration of the books we love as our creative legacy and the clues they give as to what is emerging in our story. There is a personal essay about the rationale and process, drawing the threads of the experience together into key themes. Each of the 36 books is discussed showing when they appeared in my life and the influence they provided. I suggest why you might want to read each book too.

Work with me

Reading Australian women writers in 2017

February 6, 2017

Working out what to read next is always a challenge. But books by Australian women writers are always on my mind and that’s in no small measure due to the Australian Women Writers Challenge.

It’s the sixth year of the Australian Women Writers Challenge and it has done much to change the face of how Australian women’s writing is seen and celebrated. The challenge is part of a world-wide movement to raise awareness of excellent writing by women, helping readers to “challenge the subconscious stereotypes that govern our choice of books to read.”

The challenge was started in 2012 by Elizabeth Lhuede in response to gender imbalance in books reviewed, in reading preferences and choices and in award representation. It has created a groundswell of readers, reviewers and bloggers making a conscious choice to read, review, recommend and celebrate books written by Australian women.

Promoting Australian women’s writing

I participate to help promote Australian women’s writing. The challenge overall has resulted in thousands of Australian women writers’ books being read and reviewed. It’s led to increased national and international recognition of the initiative’s achievements, built slowly over time.

The challenge has made me keep my antenna up about Australian women writers’ successes, awards and commendations. The Australian Women Writers Challenge connects with other movements aiming to raise awareness of writing by women – VIDA Women in Literary Arts, The Stella Prize and #readwomen on twitter celebrating women’s writing. I’m proud to be a Stella Sparks supporter, this year highlighting the impact of nonfiction writing by women on Australian culture and society.

It’s always so fabulous to see Australian women writers succeeding locally and on the world stage including seeing their stories made into movies. Think ‘The Light Between Oceans’ and ‘The Dressmaker’ in recent times.

My experience with the challenge

It was natural for me to want to engage with this challenge from the start. I have a great love of Australian women’s writing. My Australian literature bookshelf is about 80% women writers. This passion developed naturally during my university literature studies and has endured. It’s my history and lineage. They are not the only writers I enjoy, but they are the writers closest to my experience with all the local references, influences and language especially as it relates to women.

I also want to contribute to the legacy of writing by Australian women into the future. The challenge has kept my writing heart alive and is an inspiration as I read. It’s a message too that I am also able to write and create, express my stories and find space for my narratives in whatever form. As my heritage, it’s where I can find linkage, possibilities and a springboard for creating.

What’s in it for participants?

I’ve signed up again in 2017 because it’s now an integral part of my reading choices. I continue to be inspired and excited by Australian women’s writing. There are so many Australian women writers’ works I simply would not have noticed or enjoyed if not for the challenge.

Many of these books were picked up because I was looking for Australian women writers in libraries, bookshops and online. I possibly would not have read ‘The Light Between Oceans’, ‘Poet’s Cottage’, ‘The Longing’ or ‘Claustrophobia’ if not for the challenge. These have become some of my favourite reading experiences over the years.

I have deliberately read across genres and the challenge has contributed to my enjoyment of the beautifully science fiction inspired, ‘When We Have Wings’, the Celtic fantasy world of ‘Sea Hearts’ and the weaving medieval narrative of ‘The Scrivener’s Tale’.

I’ve been more aware and excited when Australian women writers have been nominated, short-listed and won awards for their books. And I’ve sought out the books to see why they were celebrated in their achievements, especially ‘Questions of Travel’, ‘Burial Rites’, ‘Mateship with Birds’, ‘All the Birds, Singing’ and ‘The Natural Way of Things.’

How I’ve participated and what I’ve read over the years

In terms of participation, my reading lists are not enormous – around 6 to 7 books a year. (Some participants would have read this many books already this year – at least!) I’ve engaged with the AWW community via social media, tweeting and blogging and contributing in that way. I’ve made some great online connections with Australian women writers and readers. This has enriched my reading life and extended beyond it.

Last year, my reading attention was elsewhere and my AWW focus was a bit light on, so I am keen to engage more in 2017. I also hope to do better with the reviewing side this year.

Here’s my reading list so far over the past 5 years of the Australian Women Writers’ Challenge:

2012:
Searching for the Secret River: A Writing Memoir – Kate Grenville
Sarah Thornhill – Kate Grenville
When We Have Wings – Claire Corbett
The Light Between Oceans – M L Stedman
Poet’s Cottage – Josephine Pennicott
The Engagement – Chloe Hooper
Disquiet – Julia Leigh

2013:
Fishing for Tigers – Emily Maguire
Sea Hearts – Margo Lanagan
Sydney – Delia Falconer
The Secret Keeper – Kate Morton
The Scrivener’s Tale – Fiona McIntosh
The Longing – Candice Bruce

2014:
Questions of Travel – Michelle de Kretser
Burial Rites – Hannah Kent
Mateship with Birds – Carrie Tiffany
Currawong Manor – Josephine Pennicott
The Fictional Woman – Tara Moss
Claustrophobia – Tracy Ryan
All the Birds, Singing – Evie Wyld

2015:
The Golden Age – Joan London
The Forgotten Rebels of Eureka – Clare Wright
Three Wishes – Liane Moriarty
A Short History of Richard Kline – Amanda Lohrey
The Husband’s Secret – Liane Moriarty
Big Little Lies – Liane Moriarty
The Lake House – Kate Morton

2016:
One Life – Kate Grenville
The Natural Way of Things – Charlotte Wood

It’s been a rich journey and I encourage you to seek out the voices of women writers that excite and sustain you wherever they may be.

What am I planning to read (and review) in 2017?

My list so far for 2017 includes:

The Good People – Hannah Kent
Indelible Ink – Fiona McGregor
Speaking Out – Tara Moss
The Wife Drought – Annabel Crabb
Resilience – Anne Deveson

This year has a special focus on classics and forgotten Australian women writers. Readers are encouraged to review one or two classics, including books “that might once have been popular but which have now fallen out of favour.” A classics Bingo card will soon be released to encourage people to read books from various decades.

This post, ‘100 Years of Australian Women’s writing online’, outlines the significant efforts to collate digital archives and documents to support the challenge. Elizabeth Lhuede is compiling a list of digital archives and downloads, finding many more classic and forgotten books online than anticipated. So much richness is to be found there!

To find out more about the challenge:

If you want to know about the background to the challenge, you can read about it here. And you can sign up for 2017 here. You can participate to whatever level you can manage and there’s no ‘failing’, just doing what you can (as I do!).

The AWW reading and writing community is generous, diverse and inspiring. You can connect via the blog, through twitter @AusWomenWriters or hashtag #AWW2017, via the vibrant Facebook community or through Goodreads. There are readers, writers and reviewers from all walks of life reading so diversely and widely. The consolidated reviews are excellent and highlight the work of AWW readers and writers across all genres.

The pleasures and learning are immense, raising awareness of reading choices and celebrating narratives and works by Australian women. It inspires women to find their voice through reading the voices of others. It’s no light-weight endeavour. These are the voices of creative possibilities and I treasure them.

I look forward to another year of reading books by Australian women writers. I hope you’ll join the challenge and connect with the community to inform your reading choices. And a special thanks to Elizabeth Lhuede for initiating the challenge and continuing the leadership of its evolution in 2017. I, for one, am so appreciative.

Thought pieces:

This Stella Prize podcast ‘Winning Women’ features a conversation between Baileys Women’s Prize for Fiction winner Eimear McBride and 2016 Stella Prize winner Charlotte Wood. It’s a riveting and rich discussion on the work of both writers and gender in writing.

Via the Sydney Writers’ Festival Instagram account and Charlotte Wood, last year’s Stella Prize winner, some inspiring words to finish:

Upon receiving the 2016 Stella Prize, #CharlotteWood recited her five reasons to keep #writing, penned when she considered quitting.
1. To make something beautiful. Beauty does not have to mean prettiness, but can emerge from the scope of one’s imagination, the precision of one’s words, the steadiness and honesty of one’s gaze.
2. To make something truthful.
3. To make use of what you have and who you are. Even a limited talent brings an obligation to explore it, develop it, exercise it, be grateful for it.
4. To make, at all. To create is to defy emptiness. It is generous, it affirms. To make is to add to the world, not subtract from it. It enlarges, does not diminish.
5. Because as Iris Murdoch said, paying attention is a moral act. To write truthfully is to honour the luck and the intricate detail of being alive.

Keep in touch

Quiet Writing is now on Facebook so please visit here and ‘Like’ to keep in touch and interact with the growing Quiet Writing community. There are regular posts on creativity, productivity, writing, voice, intuition, introversion, Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI), tarot and books.

Subscribe via email (see the link at the top and below) to make sure you receive updates from Quiet Writing and its passions in 2017 – including MBTI developments and other connections to help express your unique voice in the world.

If you enjoyed this post, please share via your preferred social media channel – links are below.

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Personality type as a guide to understanding yourself and valuing different ways of operating and living.

Show Notes

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Transcript of interview with Sue Blair

And that’s the same in schools or in corporate or in families. Everywhere you go, your personality is your permanent companion and you carry it with you wherever you go. So. Yeah, being able to cut and paste to different situations is really important.

About Sue Blair

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Marcia Yudkin shares insights on myths about introverts and marketing and tips for how to market in your own way as an introvert.

Show Notes

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Transcript of interview with Marcia Yudkin

And now I’m transitioning from marketing to concentrate on a newsletter that I started called Introvert UpThink, which looks at the prejudices against introverts in society and gives people resources for thinking positively about themselves as introverts.

And so you can ask them questions and so on. And it’s an unpaid thing and you’re basically asking them to do this huge favor. And I told her, forget it, . This is not something that introverts are ever going to be comfortable doing or be good at doing.

Marcia Yudkin: Well, I’m not actually writing the book per se. In doing the newsletter, I’m preparing to write the book and I’m also building an audience so that I can get a book contract.

Marcia Yudkin: Yes. And in this particular program, we were talking about ideas. So it wasn’t the fear so much that I was asking them to pay attention to, or that we were talking about. It was the ideas that, you know, had gone flitting through their mind, but they hadn’t taken seriously.

About Marcia Yudkin

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Books:

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Helping people find their place in the world through personality type clarity.

Show Notes

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Transcript of interview with Joe Arrigo

Joe Arrigo: Yes. Sometimes I think just the weaknesses are better because your strengths are always going to be there. You’re just going to naturally either plateau or get a little better as you get older with your strengths, but the weaknesses are where you can have that real growth.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, it’s more time consuming. It gets less views and engagement on LinkedIn, but, I’m just convinced and many books have been written about this, that they see you, they see how your mannerisms are, they see how you talk, my wife is in a lot of my new videos.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, most people aren’t their jobs. Like on their gravestone, they’re not putting digital marketer, I guarantee you they’re putting something else. So that’s a better place to connect with them is what they’re about, not what their title is and all that stuff.

About Joe Arrigo

Terri’s links to explore:

My books:

Free resources:

My coaching, personality type & writing programs:

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My reading story

The many skills of being able to read

Reading like a writer

How to read for more creativity, pleasure and productivity

Keep in touch & free ebook on the ’36 Books that Shaped my Story’

Share this:

Like this:

Body of work

Overview of current focus and experience

Current work focus

Coaching qualifications

Personality/Psychological Type Certifications

Tertiary Qualifications

Membership + office bearer roles

Recent articles, guest posts and essays

Recent speaking engagements

Previous work experience

Key publications & presentations contributing to excellence in Adult Vocational Education and Training

Published Poetry

Free ebooks

Reading Wisdom Guide for Creatives, Coaches and Writers

Further reading:

Share this:

Like this:

Promoting Australian women’s writing

My experience with the challenge

What’s in it for participants?

How I’ve participated and what I’ve read over the years

What am I planning to read (and review) in 2017?

To find out more about the challenge:

Thought pieces: