The Healing Power of Writing and Retreat with Kerstin Pilz

December 12, 2021

Welcome to Episode 5 of the Create Your Story Podcast!

In this episode, I’m joined by Kerstin Pilz, published author, former academic, writing teacher, yoga teacher and retreat leader.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

Transition and turning points
The healing power of writing
Dealing with grief and challenges of loss
The value of retreat for writing and life
Being a TEDx speaker
Claiming your story
Writing her memoir, ‘Falling Apart Gracefully’
Writing practices and teaching
And so much more!

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to this episode of the Create Your Story Podcast.

I’m thrilled to be speaking today with my friend, Kerstin Pilz, who you might remember featured in Episode 2 of the podcast as part of the first Wholehearted virtual book launch. Kerstin and I connected via social media and have had the joy of meeting up in three continents and countries including when I joined Kerstin for her first writing and yoga retreat in Hoi An, Vietnam in September 2018. We chat about retreat, the value of incubation in writing, Kerstin’s memoir in progress and more.

But first, a personal update and something you might like to be part of. As I speak it’s the 12^th of December 2021 and the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club is open for enrolment with the first orientation session coming up this week on 15 or 16 December, depending on your time zones. This is a year-long, actionable, community read of my books, Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition and the Wholehearted Companion Workbook. So if transition is a big theme or focus for you now and into 2022, it will be a powerful, value-packed way to do the work of transition over time with accountability and community, and make space for the deep shifts you desire. it’s part book club, part group coaching and a transformative reading experience.

So head to the Book Club links or the links in my Instagram bio, where I am @writingquietly to find out more and join the fabulous group of women gathering.

Now to introduce today’s guest.

Kerstin Pilz PhD is a published author, former academic with almost 20 years university teaching experience, a TEDx speaker and a 200 RYT yoga teacher. She is currently completing her memoir Falling Apart Gracefully. Her previous publications include academic monographs and travel features in the Sydney Morning Herald, The Australian and the New York Times and travel industry magazines. When tragedy turned her life upside-down, she discovered the healing power of writing and now teaches creative writing online and on multi-day retreats in her beautiful home in Mission Beach, Far North Queensland, Australia and in Hoi An, Vietnam, where she lives part time.

Kerstin and I met via our mutual interest in writing and living a creative life after a more academically and teaching focused career. Kerstin was the retreat host in Vietnam for retreat I attended while writing Wholehearted in 2018, is a Wholehearted Stories author: Grief and pain can be our most important teachers.

Today we will be chatting about transition and turning points, shaping a self-directed creative life, writing as a source of healing and growth in challenging times and the experience of being a TEDX speaker and of writing her memoir ‘Falling Apart Gracefully’.

There’s so much wisdom in this chat and I am excited to share this conversation with Kerstin with you today.

Transcript of interview with Kerstin Pilz

Terri Connellan: Hello Kerstin and welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast. Thank you for your connection, your support of me, Wholehearted and Quiet Writing.

Kerstin Pilz: Thank you, Terri. I’m really pleased to be here. Thank you so much.

Terri Connellan: So we’ve connected around creativity, living a self-directed life, writing and so much more on our journey together. We even met in three continents in Frankfurt, Hoi An and Bundeena where I live. So it’s so great to be able to share the insights from our conversations and our connections today. Can you provide an overview for people listening about your background, how you came to be where you are and the work you do now.

Kerstin Pilz: Okay. Thank you. Well, where to start? You’ll probably be wondering along the track what my accent is so I’ll start with that. I’m German. And when I was eight years old, I thought I want to be a writer. I just loved the idea of creating stories, but then of course, life happened and I moved to Italy and then eventually to Australia and I couldn’t write in either of those languages as a novelist or writer. So I went into a different career. So I taught literature for many years at the university, and I actually ended up doing a PhD in Italian studies on Italian literature. And then life change happened for me and I realized, it’s a turning point that necessitates perhaps finally actually also going for what I’ve always wanted to do, and that is write full time.

And so that took a few stops and starts, copywriting, travel writing, teaching at university and eventually I created Write Your Journey and the idea is I’m sharing tools with my community that helped me heal after a very difficult life event. And writing had been my tool, I call it my lifesaver. So personal reflective writing. And I’m also at the moment finally coming to the end of my draft of my memoir about these events called Falling Apart Gracefully.

Terri Connellan: Incredible. So it’s amazing how many similarities there are in our stories. And we often find the theme s that we both relate to align. One thing we’ve both shared is a major transition from a long-term career. In your case, a career in academia to a more creatively focused life. So can you describe what that transition has been like for you? How long it took and the main turning points. And I know that’s a big question too.

Kerstin Pilz: It’s a big question. It took a long time. I sort of felt at at age 48 when basically what, what triggered my life change was that my husband got sick with cancer and then he passed away and I realized that it was such a profound experience. I felt like, okay, a portal had opened up, I’d gone through a portal and it was time to become somebody new as a result of that experience of going through grief and so on.

So it wasn’t as straight forward as I had hoped it to be. And it took a lot longer than I had envisioned it. So basically I decided to leave a tenured university position as a head of department, which was a big choice. And most people thought I was crazy and I would regret it.

I mean, who let’s go of excellent superannuation, a lot of time paid leave that you can spend at home to do your research and to write your papers. But I no longer wanted to write in that voice. And I’m sure I could have, perhaps within academia explored other ways of using my voice in new, more creative ways, but it also had to do with the fact that I no longer wanted to teach Italian, which was the language that my husband and I had spoken.

And so I think it took me a long time to actually come to the point where I was writing my own book because I had to first process those events. So I turned to travel writing, and that was very exciting. I actually moved to the Maldives for a year. I worked there at the university, it was a DFAT funded appointment. And then I stayed on and I became a travel writer. So I would say I honed my writing in many different genres until I finally reached that point where I was ready to write that memoir and I love writing it. It’s not giving me a lot of income at the moment, but you know, I’m happy. I’m happy to be living in my passion and not making much money, but I can live very frugally.

I used to live in Vietnam as you know, for four years, which made things easier. And I loved living there. It was a great community, but then COVID happened and I remained stuck here and the borders closed. So that was in a way a blessing in disguise because it has forced me to stay in the one spot. I can’t travel as you know, the borders are closed. So I said to myself, well, let’s write that book. And yes, I’m very happy to say I’ve been extremely productive on that front.

Terri Connellan: Oh, that’s fantastic. And it’s incredible to hear your journey through, from academic career to where you are now and the twists and turns. And I can certainly relate to your point that what you think is going to happen or what you plan to do and what happens often two very different things. So in your Wholehearted Story on Quiet Writing, you share the story of how grief and pain can be our most important teachers. And you’ve touched a bit already, what happened in your life that that story is about. So what did you learn from moving through and on from such difficult times?

Kerstin Pilz: Oh, yes. Well, my difficult times, and I have said it publicly in my TED talks so it’s not a secret. My grief was complicated by the fact that I found out virtually in the same week, if not actually on the same day that my husband, when I found out that he was terminally ill, that his cancer was incurable. I also found out that he had been unfaithful to me, serially unfaithful. And so my world fell apart, you know, several times in that moment and so what I learned from that, and that was the moment when I had to make a decision, do I leave him? And of course it was not clear whether he had three months or five years, the doctors kept saying, we don’t know, it could be two years. It could be three years. So the decision, yeah. Do I stay or do I leave? That was a real turning point for me. And in order to reach that decision, I did something unusual. Most people probably wouldn’t do that. I locked myself away in a 10 day silent Vipassana retreat.

I remember my best friend saying, are you sure you want to do that? What if you have a breakdown, the monks are not trained to help you, if you have a meltdown. I said, it’s fine. This is a conversation, a very deep conversation. I have to do on my own terms. And I feel that Buddhism can give me the tools to actually understand what it is I have to do. Namely let go, and cultivate compassion.

And I think this is where I discovered the whole heartedness paradigm, if you like, is do I close my heart and leave this man and say, all right, that’s it you’re on your own? Not that he would have been on his own. He had a family and he had his daughter and, you know, Italian family and close my heart and perhaps become bitter, drink too many glasses of red wine just to close that chapter.

Or do I take the other choice, which is a much more difficult and stay with this man. Of course, he also wasn’t like in the movies repentant and I had sort of imagined that moment where he goes home, ‘Look sorry, honey. It happened. I’m very sorry.’ No, it didn’t happen that way. It was actually much more brutal.

However, the choice was, do I keep my heart open? Do I use this as a opportunity to evolve and to grow? Or do I choose the other options? Which could very well lead to me becoming a very bitter and twisted old lady. So I’m grateful I took that choice. So that’s the first thing I learned, to actually embrace the personal hurt. You also as your most important teacher, I mean, it’s a sort of banal and simple thing to say, but it’s super important, I feel. Secondly, it gave me that feeling of being invincible. What else can happen to me? And in fact, as you know 10 days after the funeral, we had a major category five cyclone, which was billed as the largest cyclone in living memory, destroy my beach side town.

It in fact made landfall, not far from my veranda. And so, what I learned is that you’re actually more resilient than you think, the inner resilience. And the other thing I learned and this was shocking, is that our Western society, first of all, unless perhaps you are a Christian, but most of us are secular or even atheist, we don’t have any rituals to deal with death. We don’t have any sort of protocol or any comfort around grief. In fact, I found it very shocking, how people judged me, how people told me, get over it already. It’s been five months, how people felt uncomfortable to even mention the topic. So that was an incredible learning.

And that’s where much later I discovered Brené Brown who says it so eloquently. The truly brave are those who allow themselves to be vulnerable because it takes courage to feel all those messy emotions. It’s much easier to run away to numb your pain. Not that I didn’t try that of course as well. But those emotions will always catch up with you in the end. So that’s another very important thing I learned that if you’re over grief, you get through it. And if you give yourself to actually get through it on your own time, in your own time and on your own terms, it’s a much deeper healing. At least that’s what it was for me. I’m sure there are people who do it in different ways and equally feel healed, but that was what happened for me.

Terri Connellan: Yes. And from the experiences I’ve been through, obviously quite different set of circumstances, but resonates with me with what you’re saying is that we would never wish for these circumstances in any way, shape or form, but when they do happen, there’s an opportunity for us to dig deep and that idea of creating a story, or as you say, in your lovely TEDx talk, being in charge of the stories that we tell. I guess that Falling Apart Gracefully too, your beautiful memoir title. We do fall apart in a way, but what’s the rebuilding process too.

Kerstin Pilz: Yes exactly. In fact, I did pitch this to an agency who said I don’t like the title because you want the rebuilding part in there as well. I said, yes, it goes without saying, in fact I had thought about it as ‘never waste a good crisis’ because really it was an opportunity to use this moment to actually learn something really profound.

And of course the other thing you learn when you are in the face of death and especially if a loved one is the preciousness of your own life. And that moment when he say I am no longer going to remain stuck in a shadow career. I am now going to go for what I really have been wanting to do. I could drop dead or, you know, have a cancer diagnosis tomorrow.

You just don’t know. This came completely out of the blue for us. We were about to head overseas and go on a adult gap year and had everything planned. It was basically the eve before our departure that this happened, that he got ill.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s just amazing how life can change so quickly. I think that’s something too we learn from these experiences and to make the most of every moment. So tell people what your life looks and feels like now, because it’s obviously through all of that, moved on to something quite different.

Kerstin Pilz: Yeah. So it took a long time. I did a lot of detours. I did a lot of things. I kept thinking immediately, the next year, you have to be productive. You were a head of department. Now you have to quickly do something else. So I took on a voluntary position, very onerous, as a director of a film festival. And I realised that wasn’t actually what I was meant to do. So it was a long process of figuring it out.

Right now my life looks like, well, the best thing was for me to decide, to rent my house out on Airbnb. I’m lucky enough I can do that here, it’s a beach side community. And to start again in a completely different community. And that was Hoi An in central coastal central Vietnam. You’ve been there. It’s a wonderful place. And I did a yoga teacher training in Nepal the year in 2016, when we decided this. I have a new partner now I should say, so that also happened. So that’s a lovely, it can happen. You can have your life back, even after difficult things happen.

And Hoi An, I set up myself as somebody who teaches and shares the tools that help me heal and yoga, meditation, mindfulness, journaling, and of course also creative writing. And so I used to teach it in workshops in Hoi An. And I built up my online platform. I do also teach these things online although at the moment I’m focusing exclusively on getting my own book written.

But the main thing and I really enjoy this is holding those retreats. You were at the very first in fact in Hoi An, and we were only a very small group. And now with COVID, I have shifted them to Mission Beach, cause I literally got locked out of Vietnam. All my things are still there. And I decided, well, let’s do them in Australia. And of course there’s a lot of demands. Lots of people want to do these retreats. So we have five day retreats where people can really get into their manuscripts, into the body, finding the stories they’re holding and, and just use the time to write.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful. I love that your business is called, Write Your Journey. And what you’ve done is really created and shaped a beautiful journey through incredibly challenging times. So it’s really inspiring. So while we’re talking about retreat and my experience of being on retreat with you in Hoi An, Vietnam was such an important part of my journey and my writing, my book Wholehearted. And one thing I’ve come to realize is the value of incubation in writing and retreat, especially in hindsight, when I look back over the four years of writing my book. So what would you say is the value of retreat as a writer? And what experiences do you create as a retreat leader and host?

Kerstin Pilz: Yeah, so I think the value of the retreat is really giving yourself that stretch of time, where you’re away from your family, away from your work, from your desk. I encourage lots of offline time, because you really want to slow down and become present to those stories inside of you, that that are dying to be told. I also of course, offer guidance on how to tell a story. So I tailor these retreats to the particular group, so one time, people wanting to write nonfiction books. So, you know, be focused on that. The last retreat we had people wanting to focus on short stories so we did a lot of emphasis on that. And I think the value is that you have the opportunity to really get into the flow. And I noticed this also with writing my own book. You know, if I give myself a long weekend alone without a partner without anything else, you really stay with the story.

And often the benefits come, rippled through you even much later. So I think rest and retreat. I’ve actually realized this when I was in Thailand for that Vipassana retreat I mentioned. It was at a public temple. I was the only white person. There was all local women, mostly women. And they said to me, well, we do this once a year. It’s sort of, they didn’t use the word ‘self-care’ but basically the idea is as a Buddhist, your work on your inner transformation, you’re constantly working on yourself and you should take regular retreats to deepen that inner work.

For me, when I was still working, we got 20 days paid leave, which is not very much. And I always thought, why would I spend those days of leave on retreat? Like, let’s say meditation retreat, not speaking. I always considered it to be a waste of time and I’ve changed my mind 100% on that. It is the best investment you can make for yourself.

Terri Connellan: That’s beautiful. And in terms of the experiences you create, I know the retreat I went on was a blend of yoga, writing, but also getting out and about, and for me, it was very much about sharpening my senses too. I know in Hoi An, we went to the local markets and we bought the food. We went back and we cooked it and we ate it and it was actually very rejuvenating.

Kerstin Pilz: Yes, actually. And you will remember, I think maybe it was even on that morning when we went to market, we use the, the Buddhist concept of beginner’s mind, you know, see the eyes as if you see the world through fresh eyes as if you’re seeing it for the first time, which in a context, in a foreign context, like Vietnam where everything literally is foreign and new is easy. It’s part of the experience anyway, but we also do that very actively here in Australia. And of course, for most people coming up from Melbourne, let’s say Mission Beach, which is very tropical, is also like they’re going overseas. But to actually consciously focus on seeing things for the first time through beginner’s mind is a really good lens to use as a writer. Yeah. Like you said, sharpens your skills of observation.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, and I think it’s about a reset. We can feel quite jaded. And I think that taking ourselves out of our normal day-to-day routines, it’s just totally refreshing.

Kerstin Pilz: Mm. Yes. And also you do it with a group of like-minded people. You know, I sometimes have very small retreats. The one that you came on was very small. Sometimes I have larger ones and of course, inevitably you get people from every personality type imaginable, but the thing is you’re there because of your shared passion and your shared drive to actually do that slowing down. And that can be very nourishing, the synergy that is created even those of us who are introverts will really benefit from that exposure to others who are on a similar journey.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. I found that to be the case. So in October, 2020, you presented a TEDx talk on the healing power of writing, which is incredible. And we’ll put it in the show notes and encourage people to watch that talk. Can you tell us about that experience, which I’m sure must have been quite nerve wracking, why you chose that topic and how writing can help us heal?

Kerstin Pilz: Three questions I guess but that’s great. I love talking about that experience. So first of all, the experience was just very random. I got stuck here, borders closed and I was like, okay, what do I do next? And so just coincidentally actually was somebody who came to a retreat. She also went and presented and she mentioned it to me. The deadline was like the next day. And I thought, okay, I’ll give it a shot.

Choosing a topic was very easy because the healing power of writing is what I do, and what I would like to think my business is about. And the tagline to that actually is you are the author of your own life, so you can write the next chapter. So my narrative, my story that I had set up for myself being based in Vietnam, doing what I do in Vietnam, I had retreats scheduled that year, which of course had to be all be canceled is, turn a page at any moment and write another chapter. And especially as long as you keep in focus that you don’t want to be the victim of any circumstances you want to actually be the hero of your own story, claiming your own story. So that I thought has to be the message and especially given this was of course, the first year of the pandemic and we were all a bit in shock, what’s happening here. So I thought it might also be a really good time to share that message with the world that, Hey, we’re all going through this very difficult time collectively, but there is one tool we all have available to us 24 7 at the cost of pen and paper. And that is self-reflexive writing.

So, and then to the logistics, the event was in Townsville, which is just local, it was three hour drive. I was very lucky that the person who organized the event Joanne Keon, she teaches public speaking at the local high school there in Pimlico Townsville. And she offered some coaching sessions and for free. And I thought, of course, another skill. Why not? So I actually went and met with her a couple of times and she really helped me tell it as a story that draws the reader in the reader, the listener, the audience. And the difficult part was that other famous TED talk speakers, but even the not so famous ones generally get a year lead up time.

We had from finding out that we were accepted to the actual night of the presentation, we had just under one month, which was extremely scary, but in a way it was a blessing in disguise because it meant my focus for one month, and I was by myself cause my partner was back in Vietnam, was to get this talk written and rehearsed.

And because you don’t get a teleprompter, you actually have to learn every word off by heart. And I’ve written a blog post on how to prepare, because I learned so much from this experience that I thought it might be useful for others to share. But one of the things I’d like to say is it really taught me that it’s okay and it’s important to own your story, to claim your voice and to feel confident stepping in front of an audience and saying, here is my story, and this is the reason I would like to share this with you. And then to tell your wobbly knees, just keep me straight because I have a very important message to share with the world and my knees obeyed.

I mean, I was quite impressed by myself, how well I did, considering that I had a bright light shining right into my face. I couldn’t look at any notes. I had to have memorized every word. We had a time limit, and if you go over the time limit, we were told it will not be uploaded to the TED side, so it will be disqualified. But we had no way of seeing a timer. So in other words, you have to rehearse it, not to the second, but basically you have to feel very comfortable with the pacing. The other thing I did, if anybody who’s is thinking of doing a TED talk, I rehearsed it. Well I said it out loud to myself in every context, in the car, doing the dishes, going for a walk, but I also rehearsed it with live audiences just to see what happens if somebody coughs and you get thrown and you go, oh my God, I’ve lost my spot and you go blank. Or if somebody drops a glass, which happens you just keep going.

And nobody will know if you keep skip a sentence or paragraph, cause they haven’t read your script so they will not know. So you just keep going. And that was very helpful and it was a great experience in itself to make me feel more confident about it’s okay to claim your voice. So anybody thinking about it, I encourage you to do it.

Terri Connellan: Oh that’s fantastic. And that idea of owning your story and claiming your voice. And I think it’s the same in writing, but it’s probably another step, particularly if you are a writer to then as an introvert, which you are, I am, perhaps many people listening may well be also, you have to really work, I think to claim your story and to really share your voice is another step at it. And it takes like all these steps, hard work, hard inner work, learning the skills and being able to move through that process. So congratulations on that and thanks for sharing your learning here and also in that blog post again, we can pop that in the notes because I think there’s just so much learning from that experience.

Kerstin Pilz: Yes, there’s a lot to be learned and that’s how I prepared just reading lots and lots of blog posts, how other people had done this. Yeah.

Terri Connellan: That’s great to hear. So your memoir, you are currently writing is called Falling Apart Gracefully as we’ve discussed. So how are you finding the writing process yourself? That longer term, longer haul, writing process is quite different, isn’t it?

Kerstin Pilz: Yes. I knew what I was going in for, because I have done a PhD. And I had published as you know, is required when you are an academic. And so I knew it was going to be a long haul. However, I stalled because this is, of course not a research project. It’s not fiction, I’m not making up characters and give them funny lines. You know, this is actually about me and what really happened. And also of course you need to tell it as a story that is interesting, that has tension, that moves the reader forward, you know, is a page turner, that would be the ideal way to tell it, and I’m aiming to do that.

So I think I’m very good at teaching things. I’m often a very bad student of my own teaching, but one of the things I would say, and you know, this yourself is journaling is a wonderful practice for any writer. Maybe even just simple things like morning pages to train the writing muscle, to become more comfortable in your own voice to write faster and to lose that fear of the blank page, because you can just start. And I often do that when I’m struggling to get into a chapter, I might just journal and you know, maybe three pages and then halfway through, it’s like, ah, that’s where I start and you find it. So it’s a process and for a long time, I approached, perhaps like I would have approached the PhD: researching thinking, planning, scheming. But with my memoir, it doesn’t actually work that way for me. It’s really a process of discovering the thread of the story as you write.

And then once you understand how to tell that story, I’ve chosen the three act model. I’ve obviously read heaps of memoirs, but once you have found that structure, then you can make an outline and then you sit down and you say to yourself, I’m not writing my book today. I’m writing scene X. And if I have 20 minutes, I can still write a very rough draft of scene number 25. And then maybe in the evening after dinner might have time to polish it a bit further. And then the next day I have something that is more solid than if I hadn’t sat down to do that. So choose the little pockets of time you have. Choose them well. Use the Pomodoro technique, which I know you use d and trick yourself into being productive. What works for me – and I never thought this would be the case, is to have a very strict routine. I always was, you know, the rebel. Routine? That’s for boring people. Well, I’ve changed my mind on that too. And for example, one thing I do is I combine it with exercise. So like this morning I get up at 5:30 in the morning. I’m a morning person now, which is another surprise. I do my physical exercise cause that teaches me, like, I might struggle, I don’t know, running up the hill because I’m not that fit. But if I do it for 10 weeks, I get better. And that is a mirror to my writing. It’s the same thing. I might struggle to write the first draft, but if I keep doing it, I will finish. I will get better. So have a routine, have a system that works for you. And then just do it, focus on it.

Obviously I speak to a lot of aspiring writers and I hear it all the time: I would love to write a book, but I just can’t do it. I haven’t got the inspiration. I’m waiting to be inspired. Inspiration will not come. Like Dani Shapiro says, put yourself in the path of inspiration every day. Or like Dan Brown says, sit down and write every day. He writes even, I think on Christmas day, I think he takes one day off a year.

Terri Connellan: So much about mindset. It’s about practices. It’s about self-belief you know, believing you can do it better. But a lot of it is just that step by step, day by day, you know, that idea of just getting our butt into the chair and doing the work is a big part of it too. But all those things can come together, can’t they, to also self-sabotage, you know, when our minds play tricks, our inner critic tells us, what are we doing? We’ve got to have an income somewhere along the way through all the work that we do. But it’s a huge learning process, that whole journey of writing a longer haul piece. So congratulations.

Kerstin Pilz: Thank you. Well, I’m not where you are. I’m not there yet, but I liked the idea, what you just said is an evolution, because that’s what it is exactly. You grow as you write that thing and you get so much clarity. With a memoir, of course, you do want a little bit of distance from the story because you don’t want to make it a whinge or revenge story. And for me, this is now 10 years after the event. I have so much more clarity. And it’s no longer a story about my husband. It’s the story about my rebirth, how I reemerged from this situation. The other thing I will say about the process, something to maybe help your listeners, if they are on that path and wondering how to do it, I found it very helpful to also have a support group.

So don’t show your writing to your partner, your best friend. They’re not going to be your best critics because they’ll either feel uncomfortable to say something negative or they’ll just praise you because they love you. So have a group that is your peers, a writers’ group. I had a writers’ group that I ran for four years in Hoi An and then the borders closed and we kept going for another year via Zoom, but it became too complicated.

But now I have a small group, three of us. We meet once a week and we critique and read each other’s chapters. And since we started that I have made huge progress. So that is a really good thing as well to do.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And that’s one thing I’ve really learned from my journey too. We often think of writing as just us with a pen and paper or computer. But my light bulb moment was when I wrote my acknowledgements. And then there was just this cast of many, many people involved in the community of writing that book in many ways. So whether it’s feedback, support, just that ability to talk about what you’re going through, I think is so valuable.

Kerstin Pilz: Yes, exactly.

Terri Connellan: So shadow career. In my book, I talk about shadow career, and I know that you have also been running some workshops recently around the idea. And that is a concept talked about by Steven Pressfield in his book, Turning Pro. He uses examples like being the roadie when we actually want to be the musician or being the teacher of writing when we actually want to be the writer. So I know this concept resonated with you in recent times. Tell us more about your thoughts about the shadow career and how it might be playing out.

Kerstin Pilz: Well, exactly like you just said, do you want to be the writer, but become the writing teacher. And I think you and I actually connected initially by both reading Pressfield. I think the penny dropped like six years or whenever it was 2016, when I first started this idea of Write Your Journey. And I read Pressfield and the shadow career, and I thought, oh yes, I’ve been a university lecturer teaching literature and dissecting it and writing papers on different authors when I really wanted to write my own book.

And I had always taken the excuse, well, my English wasn’t good enough. It was great for writing academic stuff, because that can be a different way of writing, but I wasn’t yet confident enough to write in a more lyrical prosaic way. Although that was just an excuse. And so the shadow career, yes, it’s a form of, self-sabotage. What I’ve also realised in my case, for example, it’s an inheritance of blockages of trauma. Like my mother, and I say it in my TED talk, the biggest gripe in her life is that her parents, growing up in post-war, being born into Nazi Germany. And then afterwards, after the end of the war, they were too poor to send her to high school. So she has remained in this narrative that she is the dumb one in the family, the one unworthy of an education. And she didn’t have the tools or the ability to break out of that narrative. So the shadow career is, like you said the roadie or the roadie who drinks himself into alcoholism thinking I’m a musician, but really you’re not, so it is so easy to remain stuck in those shadow careers.

So then what I did is. I started Write Your Journey, which I thought was a clever idea. And it is however, it actually meant, I spent a lot of time setting up my own website, which I loved. I actually really enjoyed that experience of learning new skills in that way. And then I ended up teaching writing to others.

I think the penny finally dropped when I was reading your book again the day before your virtual book launch. And I thought there is somebody who came to my retreat. She’s finished her book, we’re launching her book, where’s my book? And she talks about the shadow career. And that’s when I thought, okay, that’s what I wrote to my community and I said the monthly Zoom writing sessions that I hold live, they will be on hold until I finished my book. And so the last one I held last weekend was on the topic of shadows and it was incredible. It was such a great topic to use because of course we all live with these shadows and we need the shadow. To be whole, we actually need the shadow. And if you’re writing fiction, your character needs a shadow to be interesting, but don’t remain stuck in the shadow career. Claim your own career.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That’s fantastic. And it’s great that you were able to share your insights with your writing group too. And for the light bulbs, probably to go off for different people. Because you’re right, that’s again something I reflected on in writing my book that we need the shadow, but we need to make it more conscious.

Kerstin Pilz: Mm. Yes. That’s what Carl Jung said, making the shadow conscious. That’s the work.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. So we were chatting just before we came on live about how our themes and our stories are often very, very similar. My podcast’s called Create Your Story and you talk in your TED talk about being in charge of the stories we tell ourselves. So it’s obviously a strong theme for you. So I’m really interested for you to tell us how you’ve created your story over your lifetime.

Kerstin Pilz: So I think it comes back to that tagline I mentioned earlier, you are the author of your own life. So you know, I’m a high school dropout. I dropped out of high school when my English teacher in Germany said, you will never learn English. I said, right, I’m going to show you. Actually, I didn’t think that I went off and I worked in a hospice, of all places, at the age of not even eighteen. And in those days, it was the eighties, they didn’t have the training and work health safety that we have now. In Germany, this was, and so the things they made us do would be illegal these days, lifting bodies and so on. But it taught me so much and it also forced me to sit with dying people, and to be for the first time as an 18 year old in the presence of a dying person was extremely powerful. And it made me realise how precious life is, how it’s actually a unique opportunity because also a lot of the people in that old people’s home were very sad. You know, they had wasted their lives. Some of that has to do with historical circumstance, poverty, perhaps, but it was a much deeper teaching than high school would have given me at that point. And so I have stayed true to that dictum that I now have that you are the author of your life.

So I did eventually go back to high school because I knew an education would be important but I did it on my own terms. I actually worked in a restaurant. It was hard. I never went to any parties because I was always working on the weekends, but I was in charge. I was the one in charge. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that I was born very far away from the ocean and in a cold and gloomy place, not too far from the border with what used to be east Germany. And it was during the cold war, it was very gloomy, very gloomy. We were an occupied nation. We had American army forces around us. You’d hear them training every day, with the tanks and machine guns and that risk of cold war lingering, it really shapes your psyche in some ways.

So I work hard, saved a lot of money and I discovered Italy, sunshine and la bella vita, la dolce vita, so that’s when I realized you can, unlike my mother who has remained stuck, I was the one I never was allowed to go to high school. You can change your life at any moment. And so that’s what I’ve done. I’ve realized I can actually live in Italy. I lived in Italy for a while then I lived in Bali in the eighties before anybody did yoga there. And eventually I ended up in Australia and so what’s the question again, how I shaped my life?

Terri Connellan: It’s about how you created your story. And I think the way that you’re seeing that is reminding yourself constantly that you’re the author of your own life. You’ve also used the word self-directed, which again is a word I love too, that idea of, we have choices. We’ve talked about luck versus choice too. Luck plays a part in life, but sometimes we can overly put the emphasis on luck and talk about your lovely blog post that influenced me in Wholehearted. And I think we need to just focus on that hard inner work that we can do to make change.

Kerstin Pilz: Yes. And actually that, now that you mentioned that blog post again, that was really important to me to share that with the world. I’m really grateful that it resonated with you and others, of course, because often I get people saying, how lucky are you? You’re living in Vietnam. How lucky are you? You’re working from home. Yeah, well, I rent out my house on Airbnb, I often camp so that I can rent it out. Not everybody would want to do that. Not everybody would want to go to Vietnam and set up new and live on a small budget, but have the benefit of that self-directed life. So it wasn’t luck, it was hard work and determination and staying true to my values.

Terri Connellan: So in all of that, you’ve learned so much about wholehearted self-leadership. So you’ve read my book, you know some of the tips that I have recommended from my experiences. I’d love to hear about yours. What are your top tips and practices?

Kerstin Pilz: We share the personal journaling as a way of staying connected, of honing that inner compass and also of just unburdening yourself, saying the things that you’re afraid to say. Because that’s the other thing, where the fear is, go near the fear. And if you’re writing fiction, go near the fear, because that is where the energy is, you know, the same for a memoir. Tell us the things that you are most scared of. So confront your fears. Don’t bury them. Don’t try to outrun them. I tried that for a while, but that doesn’t work.

And other practices, mindfulness, of course. After I had my stints in various monasteries, I even received teachings from the Dalai Lama. Not just me, there were 300,000 other people. I did develop a regular meditation practice. I’m a little bit slack at the moment and when I do slacken up, I realize it. I just feel a little bit more disconnected from myself.

And also I feel less relaxed when things become stressful. And for me what’s really important is also to get enough sleep. Very important, not to be undervalued as a superpower. And well, I personally also like yoga because I feel it’s a mind body, it’s a holistic approach to life and to do your own wellbeing and to allow yourself to rest. To get out of that, I have to produce in order to be valuable to society. I need to show that I’m constantly busy, that I have to-do lists that are impossible to get through. No, it’s okay to rest. It’s okay not to be productive. Like Bronnie Ware in her book, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying says, what do people regret the most when they’re dying? Well, I didn’t spend enough time with my family. I wish I hadn’t worked so hard. Those are some of the things I’m sure the minute we stop this podcast, I’ll think of something else.

Terri Connellan: It’s great. Just to hear what’s front of mind for people and what comes to mind immediately. And I love those tips and practices that have served you well. So thank you so much for sharing about your life, your work with Write Your Journey and particularly your deep learning over time and the hard inner work that you’ve done through challenging circumstances.

Thank you for sharing them today and also through Quiet Writing which is much appreciated. I’ve gained great strengths from our connection, from your work and from going on retreat with you. So thank you for that. So if you can let people know Kerstin where they can find out more about you about your work online.

Kerstin Pilz: Yeah. And thank you Terri very much also for creating this community where actually I’ve met a lot of people online through you, and that’s wonderful in that community. So my website is WriteYourJourney.com. You can just contact me through the contact page if you want to get in touch with me. I run regular retreats. And one day, I might even have a podcast, but for now I also have a Facebook group where I post regular writing prompts and motivation articles I find and so on. And my aim going forward with my business is to actually, because my passion. You just have to stay with your passion. And I’ve realised my passion is memoir. I never thought that would be the case. But it’s a such a powerful tool because even if you’re not planning to write it as a book, sharing and writing your life story just bring so much order and clarity. And so I’m hoping in the new year when I have finished my book, you know, brought it to a point where I can back off a bit is to actually have a memoir writing group or a program or something like that. That’s sort of a long-term plan. So, and on Instagram, of course I love Instagram. I’m not that active at the moment because I get lost in social media as we all do. But since I live in a beautiful place or when I lived in Hoi An, I love taking photos. It’s another passion of mine. And so Instagram it’s @writeyourjourney.

Terri Connellan: Oh, thank you. And your photography is always so beautiful. It’s lovely to see all the amazing places where you’re living and writing from. It’s such a joy. So thank you so much. We’ll pop all those links in the show notes and thanks for chatting with us today.

Kerstin Pilz: Thank you very much, Terri. Really appreciate it.

Links to explore:

My books and book club:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club – open for enrolment now and kicking off December 2021

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching:

Work with me

Personality Stories Coaching

The Writing Road Trip – a community program with Beth Cregan – kicking off Jan 2022

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

About Kerstin Pilz

Kerstin Pilz PhD is a published author, former academic with almost 20 years university teaching experience, a TEDx speaker and a 200 RYT yoga teacher. She is currently completing her memoir Falling Apart Gracefully. Her previous publications include academic monographs and travel features in the Sydney Morning Herald, The Australian and the New York Times and travel industry magazines. When tragedy turned her life upside-down, she discovered the healing power of writing and now teaches creative writing online and on multi-day retreats in her beautiful home in Mission Beach, Far North Queensland, Australia and in Hoi An, Vietnam, where she lives part time.

Kerstin’s website: www.writeyourjourney.com

Instagram: @writeyourjourney

Facebook: @writeyourjourney

TEDx talk on The Healing Power of Writing: https://www.writeyourjourney.com/kerstin-pilz-tedx-townsville-the-healing-power-of-writing/

or shortened version: https://youtu.be/btxVXcRDhqY

creativity podcast writing

Waking up in Love, Life & Writing with Penelope Love

December 5, 2021

Welcome to Episode 4 of the Create Your Story Podcast!

In this episode, I’m joined by Penelope Love, publisher, speaker and winner of the International Book Awards as author of Wake Up in Love and editor of my Wholehearted book.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we cover:

Penelope’s book Wake Up in Love
The process and experience of writing Wake Up in Love.
Collaboration on the writing journey
Love, relationships and life connections
Balancing writing and publishing journeys
Writing practices
Spiritual practice, Sadhana and Self-Inquiry
And so much more!

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to this episode of the Create Your Story Podcast. This is the first one on interview episode which will be the predominant focus in the podcast so it’s wonderful to be stepping into the deep one on one heart-filled conversations that are what this podcast and Quiet Writing are all about.

Today I chat with Penelope Love, who you might remember featured in Episode 2 of the podcast as part of the first Wholehearted virtual book launch. Penelope received the long draft of my book and helped to shape it into the book it is. Today we focus on Penelope’s story more as well as your collaboration and touchpoints and it’s a magical interview.

But first, a personal update and something you might like to be part of. As I speak it’s the 5^th of December 20201 and the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club is now open for enrolment. This is a year-long, actionable, community read of my books, Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition and the Wholehearted Companion Workbook. So it’s part book club, part group coaching and a transformative reading experience where you can do the work of transition over time with accountability and community, and make space for the deep shifts you desire.

We kick off with an orientation in mid-December ahead of a section by section read of Wholehearted together in 2022. So head to the Book Club links in the show notes transcript on Quiet Writing or the links in my Instagram bio, where I am @writingquietly to find out more and join us.

Payment is with upfront or via monthly instalments and 50% scholarships are also available to encourage participation and equity. I’ve aimed to make it as accessible as possible for those who wish to do this deep work with me as your coach. There’s a fabulous group f women gathering, so I hope you will join us for this journey and co-creative read of Wholehearted to make the transitions you desire in your life.

Now to introduce today’s special guest.

Penelope Love, MA, is a publisher, speaker and winner of the International Book Awards as author of Wake Up in Love. In 2000, her career launched in the editorial department of the University of Michigan Press, followed by Barnes & Noble, and the original publisher of Chicken Soup for the Soul. As she expanded into book design, production and business management, it was a natural evolution into the role of publisher. In 2016, she founded Citrine Publishing based on a visionary publisher-author partnership. Penelope passionately supports people in writing the books that only they can write, while also sharing the memoir only she could write, about sexual trauma healing and marriage to her spiritual teacher along a united path of Tantra and Self-Inquiry, illuminating these essential steps on the journey to liberation.

Penelope holds a very special place in my heart as a friend and editor of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition. She is also author of the wholehearted story, ‘The Journey to Write Here’ on Quiet Writing. Today we will be exploring writing, editing, publishing, becoming an author, working collaboratively as part of our wholehearted journeys, the spiritual practice of self-inquiry and so much more. I am thrilled to share this conversation with Penelope with you.

Transcript of interview with Penelope Love

Terri Connellan: Hi Penelope and welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.

Penelope Love: Hi Terri. Thank you for having me.

Terri Connellan: Thank you so much for your support of me, my book Wholehearted and Quiet Writing and congratulations on your book. Wake Up in Love being published earlier this year.

Penelope Love: Thank you. And you’re so welcome. It’s an honor.

Terri Connellan: So we’ve had lots of conversations about writing, editing, publishing, and so much more on our journey together. And it’s great to be able to share those conversations with others today. So can you tell people about what you do now, how you got to be here and your new book.

Penelope Love: Sure. Well, I’m an editor and a publisher and also an author. I recently walked through the pearly gates of authorship in January of 2021 when I published my memoir, Wake Up in Love after 15 to 16 years of writing and editing, and working on it. In that time, I was also running a freelance business. Prior to that 15 year period, I did get my start earlier in a career in editing and publishing in the book industry, working at the Chicken Soup for the Soul publisher, the original publisher that is, and they’re based in Florida, where I was living at the time.

And Wake Up in Love actually taps into that journey of leaving the corporate world when I found that I was editing books about changing a life, but I wasn’t really changing my own life. And when I started going into that deep dive of changing my life, that’s when my freelance career took off and I became skilled in not only editing, but designing, and then publishing books and then learning the business end of the publishing side. And over the years developed myself into a publisher.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. What an amazing journey you’ve had. That’s incredible. We’ve known each other for quite a long time online, but we really connected when I reached out with my 100,000 word draft of Wholehearted, which you received so beautifully, and you’re such a magical editor, so supportive. Could you tell us about your work as an editor and why you love editing?

Penelope Love: Editing is just like my heartbeat. I don’t know. It comes effortlessly and naturally, and I feel like it has to do with the way I grew up, patterns of hyper vigilance and being very conscious of what I was saying. And if it was going to make anybody mad or not mad, and also trying to predict what they were thinking. And that is a survival skill in a way. But when you become an artist, you turn your survival skills into creative forces and that’s what editing is for me.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful. So you’ve worked on editing a long time, it’s been a longterm career for you?

Penelope Love: Yeah. You know, I didn’t get into it intentionally. When I was in college, I saw an editorial internship bulletin on one of the boards in the religious studies department. And I’m very interested in different types of spirituality and religion. And this fluorescent yellow poster just called to me. Interestingly it said, ‘seniors only apply’ and I was a junior and I still applied. I don’t know it was something in me said, why not? And I went ahead and applied and I ended up working for two years for this teacher who ended up being quite karmically connected.

Terri Connellan: And what do you love about editing? What’s so special for you?

Penelope Love: Well, it’s the relationships that I develop with the people that I work with. It is such a close, connected, intimate relationship. Editing somebody’s book, their book is an expression of their soul. It is their heart’s song playing to the world and I get to be a part of helping them shape it. It’s an honor and so much fun.

Terri Connellan: Oh, that’s wonderful. I’ve certainly experienced that as someone who worked in an editing partnership with you. So it’s a true gift. So thank you for sharing that with me. So at the same time we worked on my book, you were also completing your memoir, Wake Up in Love. So tell us about your writing journey of creating that book.

Penelope Love: Well, it’s funny, in the book, there’s actually a chapter about starting the book and it’s called The Book of Love. And I remember when I met my husband. Maybe I’ll just share a bit of backstory. The book begins where I meet my spiritual teacher, and then I marry him two weeks later. It actually begins a lot earlier in childhood, but it comes forward to this moment. And that’s the beginning of the writing.

And I sat down to write this book of love because I had fallen in love and I was married to him for probably about two or three months. And I just thought I knew absolutely everything about love. And I was 29 years old just hitting that Saturn return, you know? I was ready to take on the world as an author. And I wrote the introduction and then I didn’t really know what or else to write. And he looked at me and he said, well, maybe it’s because you don’t know what love is yet. And I’ll spare you my response, there was an expletive in it and it’s in the book, but I went ahead and became very angry. And yet I used the tools that I was learning from him along this journey, one of which is called the self-inquiry and I took this process inward. I took my anger at that thought that I didn’t know what love was inward. And I went on a journey that lasted about 15 years from the first time I put that pen to paper to write a book to the time it was actually published.

Terri Connellan: Wow. That’s amazing. So the writing over 15 years, what did that look like? Was it like lots of different periods of drafting and editing? Or was there times where you sat down and wrote a lot of the book? How did it work in practice?

Penelope Love: Yeah, in my case, it was a really cool mix of old journals that I’d kept during those years of my early Sadhana, Sadhana being a spiritual practice that you enter when you commit to a spiritual path under the guidance of a teacher. And so I had these journals from my early Sadhana, one of which I started writing on my first trip to India in 2004, when I had no idea, I was beginning to write a book. It was just writing my journal, writing my thoughts for that day. And I feel like that’s a lot like life. I think we don’t really know when our book is exactly being written because we’re just living our life.

And so there are these bits of moments in my life that got recorded in my journals that eventually became fodder for what became the book. We lived in Costa Rica between 2007 and 2010. I went through a period of trying again, to write this book of love. And in that time I was practicing the Morning Pages. So that became a tool and a lot of free writing and beautiful ideas coming out across the Morning Pages. And during that time, a local editor who was starting a magazine, asked me if I would write a column for the magazine. And that’s when I started to write some articles. And I did write about relationship because that was an obsession of mine. Ever since I was young, I was looking for a relationship.

There’s a karma to that too, at the same time, you know, it is one of those human desires. And at this point in my evolutionary journey, exploring relationship in an intimate context, it was the biggest step that I personally could have taken on the journey. So going ahead and, and writing about that process really brought a level of consciousness to it that I think would not have been present had I not had pen and paper. And that quiet time alone to explore what was happening in the relationship. And I applied these wisdoms to the articles that I was writing for the magazine and I got a great response.

It was a local magazine published in Santa Cedro Costa Rica between 2008 to 2009. And it was called Montaña al Mar. Everybody loved when this magazine would come out. People would come up to me in the grocery store and just give me a hug and tell me that they related to what I’d written. And it gave me a lot of encouragement. And I had another mentor of mine say to me, once, you know, if you write enough articles one day, you might wake up and realize you’ve written a book. So I think that time came around 2012, where I had written some of these articles in Costa Rica and I’d taken them also online. There were some websites at the time, sort of like Huffington Post-ish type of websites. And I was putting some of the pieces on there and yeah, those pieces that I created for those contexts, it started to look like I had the material for a quilt that could be a whole piece.

And I remember one day I took every single article I’d written. I wrote the title of it on a sticky note, and then I stuck them all on the wall and I arranged them in different orders. And that started to be the beginning of Wake Up in Love. It was a wall full of sticky notes at one point. And then I said, there’s some order here. There’s some structure, there’s a spine. Now let’s give it some legs. Let’s give it some arms. And over the years I started to become clear what pieces were missing, what pieces needed more fleshing out.

And there was one point , an editor pre-reader, beta reader read it. And I had written this whole book about my journey of sexual awakening through self-realisation, through the exploration of tantra, combined with Self-Inquiry. And I had written this whole book and the editor said, yeah, but I really could use a sex scene in here.

And you know, I was feeling most vulnerable about writing about certain topics, that being one of them. So when she asked for it, I knew it was time in the journey to put that forth into the book. And it actually was the crowning piece, even though it’s in the middle of the book. And that to me speaks a lot to the writing process. You can’t put things in a logical order at first. You have to let it be a wild, creative throwing. You know, some people say throwing spaghetti at the wall. One of my clients uses that term. And there’s some truth to that. There’s not an orderly process when it comes to some aspects of the creative process. And then there’s other parts of the creative process where that order is absolutely essential. And if you don’t have it, your projects won’t ever come to fruition.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I really relate to your story, having gone through my writing journey. And for me, it was a mix of sometimes having to stop, to integrate more experience, you know, to work out either what you’d written or what you’d lived and then to bring it all together into a new phase. So it’s sort of like an iterative process.

Penelope Love: Yeah. There’s most definitely that time of integrating in between. It definitely calls for patience and that’s real soul growth. That’s real important work that’s being done, even when it seems like no work is being done on the manuscript. And then of course, in the final stages of putting a book together and in the style that I did, where it was from pieces written over the years, was bringing it a sense of coherence to sound like, because it really is the journey of somebody’s awakening over the period of time. There’s some things sound very elementary in the beginning and they should, because that’s where the voice was at that point. But when you’re trying to stitch something together, that’s written over the periods of time, there’s a lot of editing work that has to go into making it make sense and keeping the raw parts raw on purpose and polishing up the polishing of some things that you were really just writing cause you needed to learn it yourself.

We call it like taking the preach out of the book. And I had an editor and she’d done the same thing with a book of essays she’d written on parenting and she said, you know, we were just busy taking the preachiness out of our book because we were preaching early what we needed to learn. And then when we learned it, it had been integrated and now you can take it back instead of telling the reader of the article or the essay, ‘you need to do this’. I could take it back to first person and say, oh, when I was going through this process, this is what I learned. And there’s a vulnerability in coming back to that first person perspective. It’s much more vulnerable than saying, ‘here’s what you need to do to have a great relationship’. This is what happened to me. And I had to go through this and I had to fail in these ways and I had to learn these lessons in order to have the successful relationship I have today.

Terri Connellan: I so relate to that from my experiences. And I guess it’s that ‘show, don’t tell’ too, isn’t it? Rather like showing what you went through rather than telling, like you said, this is what you need to do. I think that’s so powerful. So you’ve mentioned some of the challenges you came against writing Wake Up in Love. Is there anything else that comes to mind as particular challenges or insights you might share from your writing journey?

Penelope Love: Patience, I’ll echo that. It was a really challenging piece because the world began moving very quickly. 2004, there wasn’t even YouTube. I did a little research on that for my book actually, cause when I went home from meditation the first time when I met my husband that night and there had been this photograph of his teacher on the wall, behind him, Ramana Maharshi, and I needed to go home and Google Ramana Maharshi to find out, you know, what I was getting involved in. And I ended up searching only on Google and, you know, cause YouTube wasn’t really a thing. Otherwise I will certainly, would’ve gone to YouTube if I could catch a video of this man. So anyway, long story short, patience, the time. That dates me on how old I was or how young I was when I started writing the book and in the information explosion since then with social media and, you know, the proliferation of book publishing through print on demand, everybody seemed to have a book or a website or a blog and every time I tried to have one, it just wasn’t happening. It wasn’t coming together. It just wasn’t the time. There needed to be a maturing process that, the only way for a maturing process to happen is over time. So I couldn’t rush that one. And that was challenging because I really wanted to be an author like so many other people.

Terri Connellan: I relate to that too. And you are also an independent publisher at Citrine so I’m interested in how becoming a publisher has dovetailed with supporting or conflicting with your own writing, because it must’ve been a bit of tension in there. Working with books all day and then trying to write your own at the same time must have been challenging.

Penelope Love: That’s exactly right, Terri. And that was the thing, I was falling into that, ‘I’m helping everybody else write that book’ and when is it going to be the time that I dedicate to the message that I know is on my soul to communicate with the world and that took grace and patience again. Other types of challenges that come from just the sheer amount of information and really sorting through, you know, what is my message? What is my voice? What is my authentic knowingness? And how do I put that in words and sort out the other voices that are constantly coming into my mind all day, because I’m reading so much information.

So I did end up taking time off last year in the months leading up to the publication of my book. Another man was running my company and he did a wonderful job while I was on this sabbatical, even though at the time, the way it happened was, and I won’t go into the full details of the story, right now. But the way it happened was that I was actually really, truly believed I was giving the company away and that Todd was going to be running the company. And I was just going to be helping him and supporting him. And I truly had to believe it was completely out of my hands or I would not have let go. And it was so gracious the way it came back into my stewardship a couple months after Wake Up in Love came out. Then Todd said, I was only always holding this company for you. And I was like, wow, what a friend, what an amazing person. And he was one of the first authors published with Citrine and he has been by my side in every way. And I’m grateful for him. And not only him though, all of the authors were so supportive of that time that I needed. And even though they thought I was not necessarily going to be their publisher anymore, they supported me. And it’s that type of relationship that I’m even in this whole work for, that connection, that bond, that caring about each other. I think the publishing process holds up a microscope to that. It lets us really explore it and feel it and live it and know a quality of human relationship that I’m not sure you know, is possible in other types of contexts.

Terri Connellan: Hmm. Yeah. So what I’m hearing is that I guess it’s about holding your own space for your own story whilst holding space for other people’s stories and just how that, that whole tension gets managed and it makes sense to me that you would need in a way to step away so that you could sort of get space around your own story to bring it to life. Makes perfect sense.

Penelope Love: And it was wonderful too, because it was a luxury. I got to finally walk the talk I’d be talking for all these years that I knew in theory. And I knew it pretty intimately because my husband went through this process and so I was up close and personal with my husband and seeing what he went through as an author. And that was actually a big part of what played into the formation of Citrine Publishing was just watching the way that his publisher dealt with him. I want to create a company that treats authors the way I know they deserve to be treated and not the way they necessarily are treated in the traditional publishing world. Not to say that all traditional publishing goes that way, but a great deal of it is. There’s not that personal connection that I feel can be one of the strengths of independent publishing as I feel you’re experiencing right now with the kind press.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. For me, that whole writing/ publishing journey has been a real learning process for me, but certainly that relationship you have with both the editor on the way through, the publisher. I’ve been really honored with the kind press to have a very similar experience. It’s been great.

Penelope Love: Yeah. And it’s one of those things I think I may have even said this to you along our journey. It’s something that I often reflect on, you know, the first publisher with a printing press and the first author with a manuscript, having their conversation. What did that look like? Who said what to who, and you know, how did that go down? But I’d like to get to the essence of, look at, what a powerful partnership that was. And so every time I’m speaking with someone who has a manuscript, I try to harness that original creative energy of that, like archetypal conversation. How do we do something? You have a talent, I have a talent. How do we make it synergistically more than it is the individual parts alone.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And for me, it was a real journey in learning about collaboration with you and with Natasha from the kind press. And I reached out to you because I felt so lost, you know, with what to do with my book. I had created the draft. And then I got to a point, I had planned to self-publish, but I just didn’t know what to do and what step to take and I’ve come to realise writing is such a collaborative process. So is that your learning also, how do you see collaboration as part of the writing and publishing journey?

Penelope Love: Well, I feel like partnership is one of our greatest tools for evolution or heading towards self-realization. That collaborative opportunity to master our own communication because ultimately we are talking with nobody, but our own heart, our own self. And if we know that our outer world is a reflection of our inner world, then we can really use our partnerships in collaboration to master that knowingness and to realize who we are. And I feel like the writing and publishing partnership holds an extremely effective magnifying glass to that process. Because writing freezes everything in time and lets you look at it and notice it. And then if something is not quite right about it, you can edit it and you can change it. And so this freezing in time that writing does, it forces us to be clear with our words. And it ties into that self-realization that is in my own experience, the purpose of being alive.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful. And I think there’s often that view that writing is a solitary process. But the moment it really all fell into place for me was when I wrote my acknowledgements and there was this cast of many, many people who were involved in the writing process and all the inputs. And is that how you feel too about it? We can feel like it’s a solitary performance, but it’s so not.

Penelope Love: I love that you’re saying that because it’s really making me think about it and reflect on my own experience. And it was those times when I was trying to be the writer in the cabin in Costa Rica, you know, Walden, my own personal Walden Pond, creating for myself, that I was struggling the most with writing. But when I was living my life and having the daily stresses of running a business, those precious mornings or couple of hours. Sometimes I do my morning pages at night. But I didn’t call them Morning Pages. I would call it my Nocturnal Journal. And I went ahead and when I found those moments, that’s when life is happening all around me and I was dealing with people and that gave me not only material to work with, but emotions and feelings that could come through on the page.

You know, I don’t think writing can be done in a vacuum. That said, there’s a paradox for everything. And sometimes I really do need that solo hermit time to get something exactly the way I want it to be. So I think it’s balance.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I agree. I think that’s what I’ve learned from my experience, but it certainly shifted my stereotypical view of the writing process.

Penelope Love: Yeah, maybe that taps into sort of that patriarchal view of like the solo man in the cabin and Walden Pond, writing. And to not deny the beauty of those manuscripts and those publications just, I mean, there’s some awesome literature. At the same time, that image that gets perpetuated in culture, I think we’re really challenging that now with our new technologies and our new capacity for relating with each other, and we’re able to explore more of the collaborative aspect of writing and the power.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And so part of our collaboration too, has been through you sharing a story on my website and my blog as part of the Wholehearted Story series, which some people might be familiar with. And your story in that series was called The Journey to Write Here, which is about your calling as a writer, your relationship with writing over time. So what writing practices have supported you and have evolved over your time as a writer?

Penelope Love: Yes, Morning Pages, of course. I could sing their praises every day and never get tired of it. They are just such a wonderful, wonderful tool from The Artist’s Way and Julia Cameron, I’m sure your listeners will be familiar with that already. And then free writing. So like there’s nothing like a good free-write. But, that said, I also had another contrasting practice to that, and that would be writing for publication. I think, setting some goals to write for publication started to give order and structure to the free writing and Morning Page chaos that would be upon my eight and a half by 11 line paper in the morning. Because I would start to take the golden nuggets out of those ideas and start to shape them and polish them for publication. And as I alluded to earlier in the interview, when I spoke about writing for the Montaña al Mar magazine, in Costa Rica, that was my first experience of giving structure to those ideas. And it was so helpful. Because now we’re walking that balance out of the writer solo in the room and in the collaborative environment.

And then when you write for publication, that is another key piece, I feel, of practicing. Your early publications won’t be as good as your later ones. I mean, never say never because you could have a really, really awesome first time that you tried to do something like a lot of artists do. And then, you know, then the doer will kick in and the one who wants to try to do that again and try to make it as good as the first time. So we see that with a lot of musical artists. It’s almost more easy to hear in music than it is to see in writing, but it happens in all craft when you first start something, that one who’s trying so hard to be the writer isn’t there and the writing flows, and then the more you practice.

And it’s the same thing with meditation. That happens with meditation too. Sometimes the first time people come to meditation, they will have great, deep profound meditation. And then they’ll start trying to meditate. And that’s when it becomes a more restless experience until you learn to consciously tune out the the doer.

For me, that has been my spiritual practice of Self-Inquiry, using what I learned from my husband, but which is a lineage from Ramana Maharshi in India. And if anybody wants to look up that teaching, it is really profound. And the reason that I got hooked on it is because of our mutual friend Carl Jung. Carl Jung wrote a forward to Ramana Maharshi’s book. And I write about that in Wake Up in Love. I write about how I was very uncertain being a Catholic raised woman to go to a meditation class and start taking instruction from a man in a dhoti. But at the same time, when I read that Carl Jung had written the forward to Ramana Maharshi’s book, I said, you know what, I’m going to give this guy a chance.

And so the Self-Inquiry practice of taking any anxiety I had inward, including the anxiety of ‘I need to write. How do I write? This needs to get done.’ You know, ‘I’m not a writer yet’. Well, who thinks that? I do. And then I was able to be like, oh, I’m not the one. If I’m aware of the one who wants to be a writer, am I that? No, I have to be something so much vaster so much greater, so much beyond words.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful. Two things come to mind for me, from what you’ve just said. First is that writing for publication can be a really important part of our process. So for me, blogging filled that that way of writing. And I started a blog in 2010 for exactly that reason. I think it helped me to work out what I wanted to write and how I want to write it. So that was an important part of my writing for publication journey.

Penelope Love: Yeah. That’s beautiful. And I think blogging has definitely filled that… I’ve never formally read it or heard it stated anywhere that there’s a sort of like structure or balance you need to hit as a writer to develop your craft. But you know, maybe in our conversation here, we’re coming up with a sort of template that people can use, which is, make sure you’re doing some free writing or Morning Page styles and make sure you’re also doing some structured writing for publication. And that will help you develop your craft into a well-rounded craft.

Terri Connellan: I love that. And the other thing that came to me from what you were saying too, is that it’s a continuing sort of self-development, self-growth such as you went through with your meditation, which is about the mindset of writing too, isn’t it? It’s about , how we see ourselves as a writer and how we respond to our calling, which I think you’ve mentioned a few times today as we’ve spoken. Yeah, just so important.

So this is the Create Your Story podcast. So a question I’m going to ask people each time on the calls is how have you created your story over your lifetime? For me ‘create your story’ is that idea of being active. Active self-leader, active creator in our story and the decisions we make, turning points. It’s a big question. I know, but just what pops up for you around, how have you created your story over your lifetime?

Penelope Love: How fun to dance with you in this question, Terri especially knowing that this will be the podcast question that everybody gets asked. It’s beautiful one. You know, I think I struggled the most when I tried to create my story. And we could look at that literally with the years of struggle that I experienced in trying to write my memoir and get it to a publishing point prematurely.

And that was really, really painful. It started in the book in Wake Up in Love when I said I’m going to write my book of love and my husband questioned, maybe I wasn’t ready yet. And that was my first time turning inward with this process, but that was not the only time I had to turn inward about the idea of wanting to have my writing out there in the world.

And when it wasn’t happening, I’d really have to take it back inward to that question of like, who’s doing the writing, who is the creator of my story. And when I merged with that which is creating the story through my meditations, then I could become the instrument. Like the body mind Penelope could become used and played as an instrument in order to write and show a story and show one perspective of the human experience.

So I would say that’s how I created my story, but really without creating my story, with surrendering to that, which is creating the story.

Terri Connellan: Oh, that’s so beautiful. Yeah. And I think that it’s often that tension again, we’ve used the word tension a lot, but life’s a lot of tensions between what we want to do. And then also allowing, like that, being/ doing tension too, isn’t it?

Penelope Love: Yeah. I love the word tension. You know, I used to be so afraid of the word tension and you know, my counselors and anxiety. And I mean, I can’t believe I didn’t even touch on this yet. Although I did a little bit with the idea that editing is a great outlet for the type of hypervigilant upbringing that I had, but also OCD. I had OCD and depression and these types of things that create a lot of tension in one’s life. But when you look at even sexual energy, that leads to orgasm is full of tension. And like, I love tension because when it releases, it’s freedom. And so why should we fight with tension? And when we stopped fighting with tension and we actually are able to find the joy, the peace, the bliss, the orgasm, a lot easier. Yeah.

Terri Connellan: That’s wonderful. Yeah. I think that’s great. It’s about that, again, reframing of what we go through and just shifting our mindset to, to embrace something rather than fighting it all the time. So I think that’s a valuable insight.

Penelope Love: Yeah. So I’m happy we played with the word ‘tension’ today and I love it. And I don’t even mean to take the tension out of tension. Well, you can’t, but the idea is like if tension is there, let it be there. Like enjoy it because it is part of the human experience to love, to relish, to be like, frustrated that something’s not coming to terms yet or coming into being yet, because you know, when it does, it’s going to be so much more joyful than you can ever imagine. And that I know from publishing the book.

Terri Connellan: I can relate to that. I can relate to that too. The many times I nearly gave up because of that tension. And I think it’s that sort of pushing through and that Yeah, that just desire for completion and commitment to ourselves is really important.

So, you know my book Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition very, very well because you’ve been on an intimate journey with me and you know about some of the tips that I recommend, but what are your top wholehearted self-leadership tips and practices, especially for women.

Penelope Love: You know, it’s an honor to be asked that question by the woman who wrote the book on wholehearted leadership, because I’m like, Hmm, what else could I add to that book? Or what else could I add to that body of wisdom? And I’ll have to reach back into my early experience of Sadhana again, spiritual practice. And I make reference to this in Wake Up in Love as well. I was given a tool by my teacher called the conscious daily planning sheets. And that is a process of setting your daily agenda with intentions. So you’re not only writing down what you have to do, but the feeling of completion or the feeling of connection that you want to have when you’re doing those activities.

So you’re spending your time at night, doing your daily agenda for the next day. And you’re practicing those feelings before you go to bed and you’re taking them into sleep with you. So that the next day, when you wake up and you go through your day, your day’s already played out in your subconscious mind as you’ve been sleeping and it becomes the way you wanted to feel the night before it starts to happen and unfold in an effortless way.

And the practice of this daily sheet actually ultimately removes the doer, the sense of doership or volition, from your daily activities. And that’s where you find a sense of surrender and freedom and more creativity in your life when you practice this. So in addition to the daily agenda part of the sheets, it has a daily review where you’re looking at, and as a Virgo, you’ll love this, a checklist. Did I exercise today? Did I do conscious reading? Not only reading, you know, the tabloids, but did I read a book by an awakened Sage? Did I let that highest consciousness, Rumi poems, did I let those poems slip into my heart today?

Did I eat consciously? How present was I when I was working? There’s a whole checklist on these sheets. And there’s also a walkthrough of the self-inquiry and it’s broken down into the questions of the process that eventually becomes an automatic happening as you practice inquiry. But the sheets are like training.

So they go through each of the steps of the inquiry and you will take anything that made you upset during the day. And you would use the self-inquiry process with that to get behind the sense of I that has the problem and to find the solution. And then to go in forward into the communications you need to have with the people who were involved in the upsetting situation to clear the space and keep the space clear so that you can move forward with your life in a productive way.

And so these sheets, they took about an hour to do every night. And then at the end of the month you’d have 30 sheets. And you would take a log of all the things that upset you and you would write them down again. And you could look and see, do I have repeating patterns of upset? Are things continuing to upset me? Because if they keep coming up, you know what, you’re not getting clear. You’re not taking that inquiry piece all the way home. And so it was a really beautiful process that I was given by Nick, my husband, my teacher. And in the context of the conscious living center that we had, and everybody who lived there did the sheets and you know, the communal center where we lived, this came in really handy because in our communications with each other, and if something upsetting happened during the day, we would resolve it right then in there. And if it wasn’t resolved on the spot, it was at least resolved by the end of the day, before we went to bed and those problems were not carried forward into the day. And it created an efficient and beautiful and loving organisation. And I feel I applied those skills that I used and learned, the muscles that I built from the sheets, in my life. And that was a very wholehearted practice for me that I did for many years. And I affectionately now call them the holy sheets because the idea of doing and cataloging all of these things about your everyday. It takes somebody with a dedicated mind, who really wants to wake up to the truth. But when you commit yourself to that process, there’s no limit to what’s possible.

Terri Connellan: Well, thank you for sharing your practice with us and something that’s been honed over a long period of time too which I’m sure has made a huge difference to how you live and how you create your story. So thank you for sharing that with us.

You just spoke about poetry. Is there anything you’d like to read us from Wake Up in Love before we close?

Penelope Love: Sure. You know, my book is a tapestry of poetry and prose, and it’s funny, I didn’t know I could write poetry until we started, I hopped on Instagram about 2014 and you know, there’s some newsletter and I got an account and people started posting the challenges and I started taking photos with my phone and then these little beautiful ideas would come to me as I was taking the photos or looking through my photo album and they started to come to me as poems. And I taken poetry in college. I got a C, and I was pretty much a straight A student and it was really upsetting to me that I had gotten a C in poetry. I had to get that doer taken out of the way. That one who thought it was writing the poetry and just allow these, these ideas and words to come. And so it was a very beautiful addition to the book that came later that had I published the book three or four years into the writing, it would not have the poetry dimension.

I’d love to share one. And I think the best one to share is, this one is called, Take a Backward Bow.

All the exploration is preparation

for the moment the wind blows just so –

you forget everything you know

and fall in love with the endless show

as you take a backward bow

to the miracle of how

The One you’ve been looking for

finds You

and the exploration begins

anew

Terri Connellan: Thank you. That was just magical.

Penelope Love: I love that one because it’s not only about meeting a soulmate in life, but it’s also about the creative process and ultimately about meeting yourself.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful. Thank you. So I thoroughly recommend to people to seek out Wake Up in Love. We’ll put the links in the show notes. Penelope, can you tell people where they can find out more about you, your book and your work online?

Penelope Love: Yes. Sure. I have a website that is accessible through PenelopeLove.com and I am also active on Instagram. My username there is @penelopelovely

Terri Connellan: Wonderful. And it’s been such a joy to connect with you over many years on Instagram, as the editor of my book and and through our blog writing together. And, just so many beautiful conversations. It’s been such a joy to share those with others today. Thank you so much.

Penelope Love: Yes, Terri, thank you. It is a joy to add to our body of conversation and I look forward to many more years of our friendship going forward.

Terri Connellan: Thank you.